Rising from the Ashes: A Journey through 'Burn Down, Rise Up' | BLK Girl Reads Ep. 8

Join us in this captivating episode of BLK Girl Reads as we delve into the thought-provoking pages of "Burn Down Rise Up" by Vincent Tirado.

In this discussion, we'll dissect the themes, characters, and poignant moments that make "Burn Down Rise Up" a must-read. Our insightful reviews will not only provide a deep understanding of the book's narrative but also shed light on its cultural and societal significance.

Expect engaging commentary, spirited debates, and perhaps a few surprising revelations as we come together to celebrate literature and share our thoughts on this remarkable literary journey. Whether you're a long-time fan of the podcast or a newcomer, this episode promises to be an enlightening and enriching experience for all.

Tune in to the BLK Girl Reads Podcast and be part of the conversation. Don't forget to share your own thoughts and insights with us on social media as we continue to grow our community of literary enthusiasts and creators.

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Transcript

Jann: 0:01

Mysterious disappearances, an urban legend rumored to be responsible. One group of teens determined to save their city at any cost for over a year. The Bronx has been play by sudden disappearances that no one can explain. 16 year old Raquel does her best to ignore it. After all, the police only look for the white kids. But when her crushed Charlize's cousin goes missing. Raquel starts to pay attention, especially when her own mom comes down with a mysterious illness that seems linked to the disappearances, Raquel and Charise team up to investigate. But they soon discover that everything is tied to a terrifying urban legend called the Echo Game. The game is rumored to trap people in a sinister world underneath the city, and the rules are based on a particularly dark chapter in New York's past. And if the friends who want to save their home and everyone they love, they will have to play the game and destroy the evil at its heart or die trying. All

Joi: 0:55

Woo,

Jann: 0:56

Well, welcome to the Pack cast everybody. I'm Jan, your host.

Joi: 1:02

I Joy, your co-host.

Didi: 1:04

And I am indeed a visiting guest.

Jann: 1:09

We have an awesome guest with us today. and if you like what she has to say, she'll share her socials after, so you can go and follow her.

Didi: 1:17

Yeah.

Jann: 1:18

all right, so let's jump right into it. let's do ratings. Joy, what do you think you would rate? burn down, rise up

Joi: 1:25

I'm gonna get rid of two and a half.

Jann: 1:27

Two and a half. Okay.

Joi: 1:29

Mm-hmm. Out

Jann: 1:30

All right. All right. Uh, do you wanna give a quick reasoning without spoilers?

Joi: 1:37

Not without spoilers. No.

Jann: 1:40

Okay. Uh, DEI, you wanna give your rating?

Didi: 1:44

My rating is also a two and a half.

Jann: 1:47

Okay.

Joi: 1:50

Yep.

Jann: 1:50

Any explanation, spoilers, or you wanna wait? We get.

Didi: 1:56

I do have a explanation without spoilers, and that is for me, there were too many potholes. I had too many questions that went unanswered. And then I'll also preface this, that there's a. I'm a mid 30, well, not mid 30, early 30 year old, reading a young adult. So there were some moments where I just could not relate. It just did not make any sense to me why the kids were thinking the way they were. I tried to see if, well, when I was in high school, is this what, how I would've reacted. And I can say, honestly, I don't think so, but it's been a while since I've been in high school.

Jann: 2:39

Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. okay, so for my rating, I was given it a three and a half stars and I thought I was being harsh, but I do have a lot of those same concerns with like the plot holes and just like, you know, some things I couldn't relate to, like you said.

Didi: 2:54

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 2:55

and we'll get into more. That's all I think I can say without giving too many spoilers. But, this is the point of the episode. Guys, from here on out it's spoilers. So if you haven't read the book and you wanna read it, go ahead and click off and come back after you've read it or you can jump to the end if you, uh, want a chance to win this book. Uh, joy, do you wanna give our recap?

Joi: 3:18

I'll give my recap and then you can give your recap because you always say, I don't go over it well.

Jann: 3:24

Yeah, yeah, I did say that. Wait, Deedee, you are in for a treat. Wait, watch.

Joi: 3:32

Okay, now here we go. We have Raquel as the main character. Um, she's in high school. We have Poppy, her father, her mom, um, Cisco is Charli. Okay. Erin is Raquel's best friend, and then we have Charlize, like I got it written down. Charlize is the crush of both Erin and Raquel. And then we have Oscar, who was Aaron's cousin, brother. It's one of them. Who

Jann: 4:01

it was Mario you're

Didi: 4:02

Yeah, it was Mario.

Joi: 4:04

Oh, Mar, that's right.

Jann: 4:06

That's Aaron's brother.

Didi: 4:07

Yeah,

Joi: 4:08

Aaron's brother who was Oscar.

Jann: 4:10

I don't recall.

Didi: 4:11

I don't recall. No Oscar.

Jann: 4:13

Right.

Joi: 4:16

So much for writing things down.

Jann: 4:18

are you enjoying it so far?

Joi: 4:23

I thought a different format for the summary might help, but, uh, so far, woo. So basically at the beginning we have Francisco, who they call Cisco. Throughout the story he's been missing and he comes up and he goes to the hospital, kind of daisy doozy, Daisy

Jann: 4:43

Woozy.

Joi: 4:43

woozy,

Jann: 4:45

Okay. Yeah.

Joi: 4:48

and he touches, Raquel's mom who was a nurse. And she comes down with some kind of, and like sickness and no one knows what it's about. It's very contagious. So because of that, Raquel has to go live with Poppy, who is her father. Their parents are separated right now. and her father is very spiritual, not religious, but spiritual. he has beads for her that she kind of carries with her because she's been having bad dreams and fighting in her sleep and coming up with odd bruises. basically Raquel is kind of, um, she's recruited by Charlize to help F Cisco and basically they find out that he played a game called the Echo Game and you have to go to the subway at a, at 3:00 AM and stay there for an hour and there's certain rules that you can't break. And apparently Cisco broke those rules so he couldn't come back. Um, so there's gonna go find him. And then, um, Charise, she, once they go, she sees what she thinks is Cisco and gets off the subway and then gets trapped there because the timers running out and Raquel couldn't find her. So Raquel leaves recruits Aaron, and Aaron brings Mario and they go find Charlize and, uh, You know, I forgot like a whole, like part of this Dang. On story. So,

Jann: 6:11

you're doing way better

Didi: 6:13

you hitting the main points though?

Jann: 6:14

Exactly.

Joi: 6:16

okay. And then like, so with the echo, it is like topsy-turvy. Think of like stranger things, the upside down of, the Bronx or Brooklyn. Is it the same thing?

Didi: 6:26

I think it's.

Jann: 6:28

Yeah. Bronx, I don't, no, Bronx is not Brooklyn, but.

Joi: 6:31

uh, um, so they go to the Bronx, like the upside down. Things are kind of old, like kind of, um, how you would find it in the seventies because basically the echo attaches to whatever the worst thing happened in this area. And the worst thing that happened was that they were, the neighborhood was getting kind of burned down all at once due to gentrification, I think. Um, and yeah, a lot of people died a big tragedy. And this is where they're trying to like, find their way out of and fight. The bad guys and the people that are also trapped there who are kind of like ghouls or zombies or whatever. So you wanna fight against those and eventually everyone makes it out except for Cisco. And that's it. The end

Jann: 7:14

The end happily

Joi: 7:15

the mom is okay.

Jann: 7:19

I think it's interesting that you mentioned Stranger Themes. I saw like an ad for the book before I put on our list that said it was like, stranger Themes meets Reddit conspiracies. I'm like accurate, accurate. I'm sure I read it.

Joi: 7:35

the. When I first, heard, when you first read the synopsis last episode, I thought about that girl that went, that disappeared playing that elevator game and she ended up in the water tower

Didi: 7:47

Oh yeah,

Joi: 7:49

Like I know there's a few different games like this and I remember in high school and I'm like, I playing these goddamn games crazy. Hell turn the lights and play hide and seek with demon dolls and

Didi: 8:07

Candyman.

Jann: 8:09

What I remember is the cinnamon challenge. I don't know who y'all was hanging out with, like elevator game, demon dolls. I don't remember none of that.

Joi: 8:19

Yeah, and it's a certain set of rules you're supposed to play by and like if you mess up, they could kill you. Things like that. Yeah. Like I'm not playing these games. No. I can't believe you don't remember those.

Jann: 8:32

as far as like, I thought it was funny that no one mentioned a Ouija board with an Echo game, but everyone kept saying, was he playing with a Ouija board?

Didi: 8:40

Right.

Jann: 8:42

Like that's the only thing that's like scary that people were doing like around me that I was like, I would never, like, no, don't even ask me. You have a Ouija board in the house. I'm going home.

Didi: 8:51

Right.

Jann: 8:52

Like,

Joi: 8:53

Yep. Absolutely No leeway for that kind of stuff. It's scary.

Jann: 8:58

yeah. I thought that was a really interesting part of the book when they were like figuring out from his roommate what happened to him once he told them, like everything that happened to everyone who played, everyone was silent and then just said, yeah, black people don't do this.

Joi: 9:15

Yeah. I thought that's funny. She kept bringing up like, black people don't do this. No. I'm

Jann: 9:22

that's so funny.

Joi: 9:23

No, I was just gonna get into it as far as Cisco touching her mom. I was like, I wonder if he like recognized her and was asking her for help being a nurse. Like, oh, I recognized that nurse and kind of reached out to her

Jann: 9:34

Well, he said in the book that he kind of recognized her, but he couldn't tell where, and I think he was just losing control is how I read it, and grabbed onto whoever was closest.

Joi: 9:43

Hmm.

Didi: 9:43

And so, so for me, what I'm trying to understand is, and I think I might've missed some bits and pieces, he get back on the train to get out. How did he get out?

Jann: 9:55

So they kept calling him Allure and I kind of had to infer what that meant. Like they were letting him pass back and forth, but they never explained

Didi: 10:03

Yeah, it wasn't, and so then he's got this rot inside of him. I'm assuming it's because he didn't follow the rules, but he was still able to come out.

Joi: 10:15

I think they let him go out there to pass on this kind of like sickness, contagion or

Didi: 10:21

Mm-hmm.

Joi: 10:22

next person because apparently you don't have to play the damn game if you get the touch. The ick,

Didi: 10:28

Just Okay.

Jann: 10:33

Well, I don't understand that either.'cause they made it seem like she was the only person who they had seen this from. Like you'd think like hospitals would share notes if they found like a completely new mysterious illness. But they said that a lot of people were. Yeah, the corduroy guy from the whole book, they said he was a Lord too, which apparently meant he could talk to her, which I never understood that either. Like did she play the game before or was she just psychic? And that's why she was able to go back and forth,

Didi: 11:00

Yeah, see, and I wish they would've developed that a little bit more, or at least given a backstory. There's like so much, so many backstories that they, that, uh, could have been added here to give context to the characters and what they're able to do.'cause then my thing was the dad is very like, spiritual and he knows about his daughter having these dreams, fighting off demons or whatnot in her sleep. Why would she tell him or ask more questions or anything like that?

Jann: 11:27

I didn't get that at all. As soon as he brought it up, she could have been like, yeah, look at this, this burn. I just.

Didi: 11:35

exactly.

Jann: 11:37

There's a whole thing with that where like, I felt like I inferred a lot of things, but I'm not sure if that's what the author intended because he also said like, both of your parents are spiritual and that's why I think you're psychic told her, I think you're psychic. And she still found some way to not tell'em. I, it was weird. I'm curious about your opinions on their marriage breaking up. I assumed it was because a mom blamed him for his, like santoria he was doing, and she seemed like she was very much like Christian because, you know, she said that he couldn't even come into the house, but they also seemed cordial. So do you think like she blamed him for her having the nightmares because of the Santeria?

Joi: 12:14

I don't

Didi: 12:15

I don't know.

Joi: 12:16

that that was the case. I feel like it was more just like maybe the personalities didn't mesh well anymore. Especially after having a kid. Like he was obviously more messy. Some things probably didn't bother him as it would bother her, especially with him having a kid. Like he didn't have internet. It was constantly cold because he was living in a dump kind of,

Jann: 12:33

Well, that's just because he was a bachelor at that point though. Like that's a lot. Men live, right?

Joi: 12:38

yeah. But like if

Jann: 12:39

they just don't.

Joi: 12:40

you just like, I don't wanna clean up after you and this kid, and I'm a nurse, like I got all this shit to do. I

Didi: 12:44

I will say your mentality change, having kid you put up with so much.'cause I mean, just thinking about my relationship with my husband, there was a lot that I put up with, but then when I brought this baby, I can't take care of this baby and you a whole, everything's gotta change and you need to grow up. And so I was thinking maybe it was a difference like of that. Plus he, em kept mentioning it. He was an mt so that was annoying to me, working some crazy hours and that also wasn't the situation at all.

Joi: 13:22

And to also have possessed baby, I mean, that's stressful, so

Jann: 13:27

Okay. One more piece of evidence I wanna introduce then

Didi: 13:30

Okay.

Jann: 13:31

was when she said that her mom told her not to even pass by places where they practiced Santeria. That was interesting to me.'cause she was like, yeah, I never thought about it before. I just thought she was being overprotective and I didn't wanna go there anyway,

Didi: 13:44

can see how people would look at Santare and think it's like Dean of Magic or something like that, because I've seen like, I mean, granted it is what dramatic ization or however you pronounce that word on tv.

Jann: 13:58

ization, I don't know.

Didi: 14:00

So that word, um,

Jann: 14:01

It's a lot of syllables.

Didi: 14:02

and you know, all the rituals and you know, sacrificing like chickens and stuff like that. I don't know if that's what they actually do.'cause I don't know San real like that. So quote me on it or get, get on me for saying that. But I could see, you know, uh, a black mom being like, oh no, you ain't going, that ain't over there. Leave that alone.

Joi: 14:24

Yeah. Like just

Didi: 14:25

That is possible.

Joi: 14:26

Yeah. Like you don't know it like, you know, like, I mean, honestly, if I knew someone was doing like a different kind of like spiritual kind of, you keep your distance, be respectful. Don't even go over there so you won't fuck up. That's the way I look at it. You know, don't piss anybody off.

Jann: 14:41

to not want to like dabble with stuff they don't understand. It seemed like she was all the way into Christianity and he was all the way into Sania. So like that mes up I feel like was a theme of the book, like just trying to combine cultures and sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't.

Didi: 14:56

Right.

Jann: 14:58

It was very interesting to me, especially since they were Dominican, you know, because a lot of them do practice santer and then a lot of them are very Christian. Like, that's just how the community seems like. Um,

Joi: 15:08

just think it's interesting too that they couldn't mix it a little bit better. Like maybe the mom was more just close-minded to it, but I don't see the issue of the baby wearing beads while they sleep and like just lighting a

Jann: 15:18

that was it.

Joi: 15:19

also taking her to church, you know?

Jann: 15:21

I think at some point in the book he said that, the mom or the mom's family is what he said got irritated with him having the beads around because they thought they were bad luck. And every time she would have, like, that's what it seemed like to me, like they were working stuff out until the baby was having these nightmares and getting hurt and then they couldn't reconcile like their beliefs.

Didi: 15:41

Yeah,

Jann: 15:42

but yeah, he said that they family was irritated that he had the beads around and said it was bad luck. So,

Joi: 15:47

Hmm, I can see that. I can see it.

Jann: 15:52

yeah.

Joi: 15:53

All right.

Jann: 15:54

did dive right in, let's take a step back. Did you guys have least or favorite characters least favorite or favorite?

Didi: 16:01

Yeah, I think so. I like to do with the corduroy jacket. He was interesting to me, kind of mysterious, was trying to figure out what his deal was. Is he, evil is good. I didn't clock him as all the way evil at the beginning either. So, um, his character was interesting to me. I will say my least favorite is, um, the main girl. What's her name? I done forgot her name? already.

Joi: 16:29

Raquel.

Jann: 16:29

remember?

Didi: 16:31

Raquel? Raquel.

Jann: 16:33

why was she your least favorite?

Didi: 16:34

nerves. She got on my nerves because there was a lot of things that she did that just did not make any sense to me. Like one, why ain't you telling your daddy what's going on? Why do you think that only you can save the debt? It just don't, I, I hate that mentality. And then the things that she did in the books just didn't make sense. I feel like the author could have built better connections. That made more sense as to why you would get off that train.

Joi: 17:00

Mm-hmm.

Didi: 17:01

A, a friend that I ain't talked to in years, I got a little crush on, I'm not getting off of this train for you after I tried to stop you and you trying to get, I can understand why she ran off after her, but Ra, why are you getting off? That ain't your

Jann: 17:21

that, that sounds so harsh, but I swear to you I was think of the same thing, like it'd have to be a sister or a best friend or.

Didi: 17:28

A, a blood relation because I'm not going.

Joi: 17:32

even said, that's why Aaron didn't go the first time. He was like, listen, I like you, but uh, I ain't playing no demon game.

Didi: 17:38

turned around and got mad at Raquel for leaving Charlie's, and I'm like, excuse me. If I would've gone after her, would I be here?

Joi: 17:47

Mm-hmm.

Didi: 17:47

So you want me to die, but you wouldn't even go get on that damn train to begin with. Boy, bye. I'm not and, and then I wouldn't even apologize for it, my decision, but let's go on and try and get this girl. I guess I don't even know if I would do that.

Jann: 18:05

right. Real quick though. Real quick. I hate to be at Elisa Simpson, but

Didi: 18:11

Okay.

Jann: 18:11

Aaron did wanna take his little ass on that train too. He couldn't because he was sick, but he was like trying to go along to impress her, which I thought was even stupider. I don't even know if I could say stupider, but yeah, he wanted to go and then got mad at her and I was like, you're crazy. and then another thing with Raquel, like, I think it was kind of a cop out to just say she was mad and saying stuff because of the echo affecting her.

Didi: 18:38

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 18:38

Like she could have just been that though, like she has a lot of shit going on with her, like her mother. And that was the thing that was most unbelievable to me, that she cared even for a second about what the fuck Charlize was going through when her mom has a week to live.

Joi: 18:51

Mm-hmm.

Didi: 18:52

Right.

Jann: 18:53

Like that was the most unbelievable thing. I think like, yeah, the chemistry between them was off to me, like when she first mentioned it. I was like, that seems kind of nostalgic to have like a crush that you kind of say stuff out loud so that they show up at the same place as you. Like that seemed like cute kid stuff, but the fact that she cared at all once her mom was sick was

Didi: 19:14

Right,

Jann: 19:14

unbelievable for me.

Didi: 19:16

right, right.

Joi: 19:17

Yeah, because it seemed like the stakes didn't go up until after she said Charlize was there trapped, and not after. Your mom only had a week or two to live. She goes, oh, we gotta go immediately. You know?

Didi: 19:29

But then, but then if, if, if I feel like that Charlize was there to get this girl to go to the Echo, I don't know that she would go. If it was just her mom was sick and got a week to live,

Joi: 19:44

no.

Didi: 19:44

because there's no like backstory as to how did the echo come to be? Where did this game come from? Why is it that you gotta play it? And then that, like the ending that, but we'll get to that part, but I just, there's no, I need some definitions as to why this stuff is ex, why it exists when it's been around for a very long time. I'm sure somebody could research it, just like do man research and found that Olivia girl in England, which by the way, that was another thing that annoyed me. voice actor or the narrator was good, except for when it came to British accent. That was, it was terrible. I wanted to, to fast forward through, but I'm like, I gotta listen to it, hear what she said. But, and then you would think after hearing what the girl said about. And playing this game that would tell me, oh no, we don't need to go on there. That's okay.

Jann: 20:45

can we just hold on for a second? We're right there at that point too. first of all, I didn't listen to this audio book. I read this one, so I need to go back and listen'cause I think that's gonna be hilarious. But also why is it that the whole time they were annoyed at people for not believing them and then they found this girl that actually went in and they all discredited her. Like, oh, she's just crazy.

Joi: 21:06

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 21:07

what? Like I'm sure it can't be that bad. It didn't really happen. She's crazy. Like I don't know how that works. Like you guys have been talking this whole time about how no one believes you and you're so excited to talk to someone who's been through it and you immediately dismiss her. What sense does that make?

Didi: 21:24

Mm-hmm. Teenage logic.

Joi: 21:29

Wait a sec. So wait, Jan, who was your favorite and least favorite?

Didi: 21:31

Yes.

Jann: 21:33

Okay. So my least favorite was Charlize.

Joi: 21:36

Really?

Jann: 21:37

Period. Period. Like seriously when she first snapped on Charlize in the bus, when she was like, what do we do? What do we do now? What do we, and she was like, I'm right here with you. What do you mean? What do we do? Can you shut up for a second? Like, I dunno. And then she went and sat a couple chairs down, They had the whole thing where she was like, I don't know what this is. Like I just, it's the echo was affecting me. Like, no, that was a good reaction to what you're going through. Like that was actually legitimate because she's being annoying as

Didi: 22:10

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 22:12

And then like the fact that she almost didn't get on the train, oh, here's the thing that first made me not like her is when they were talking about if they were gonna do it or not. And she spoke for both of them. Was like, well, me and Raquel are gonna do this and you guys can come or not. Like talking to Arian Mario. If I was Raquel, I would've been like, who is doing it? Because you didn't consult with me on that. We both are learning this information right now. Like I don't understand, like consent is important is all I'm saying. But she, of course Raquel just went along with her'cause Raquel was a close second to my least favorite. Um, yeah. Who was my favorite? I don't know, probably Mario, to be honest with you. I know he said that he went through like an obnoxious phase where he was like brutally honest, which I think was a asshole move, but it also seemed like he was a kid. So I feel like his reactions to everything was very measured. Like he was being kind of creepy with her the first time we met him. But if Aaron lied to him and said that she was into him, that makes sense. And then he came along with Aaron to protect him, even though he thought it was bullshit, which I think good brother, in my opinion. Um,

Joi: 23:31

And he brought a gun.

Jann: 23:33

no, no. Aaron brought the gun.

Joi: 23:35

Oh, okay.

Didi: 23:36

That was

Jann: 23:37

Mario brought brass knuckles, which I was also like, you wanna get in,

Didi: 23:41

the thing I didn't understand is that she knew going back in that, you know, we dealing with some zombies. They gonna try to eat you. They gonna try and get at you. So I brought this bat and I forget what else she brought, but then caught himself shocked that he brought a gun. Why not? Seems like it'd be just as effective, if not more than a bat, like Raquel knew what was going on in the echo, the in between, the upside down or whatever, and that there would be zombies trying to come at you.'cause you know that's what they do. Why on earth are you shocked and appalled about a dude bringing a gun to, to this fight y'all fighting for your lives? For me, I'd be like, Great. The more the merrier. I'd rather shoot a zombie than get up close and personal with a bat that might not work. So that to me just like, whoa, that's too much. You brought a gun, but y'all about to get on this train and go enter in with some zombies. Don't understand that. So that one kind of annoyed me,

Jann: 24:44

yeah, that was super weird for me, especially since like, She went through the whole thing of packing up her bat and like it went through her mind of, I, I hope I still have this at the end. It'll be a good memento. I'm like, what? Where is your brain right now? Like, why is that what you're worried about, girl? Like it looks so pristine. I wonder how damaged it'll be at the end of this. Like, I wonder how damaged you'll be at the end of this stupid, like how you keep your eyes on the prize, like what's happening?

Joi: 25:14

I was sort of wondering like, right. I was wondering, she did at least bring some bug spray and a lighter.

Didi: 25:28

I

Joi: 25:28

thinking, like,

Didi: 25:29

I would be decked out like gear, like a helmet, something. But then you call yourself shocked that a tall man brought a gun. I think he was the smartest one.

Joi: 25:43

I would've taken my whole like,'cause her dad is spiritual. He should have take been taking notes, spring some salt, some kosher salt with you, you know, watch Supernatural. Right. Take some notes, how to fight ghost and demons. Like pretty much went in there naked. Mm-hmm.

Didi: 25:58

I got back on that, that, that

Jann: 26:01

And didn't she say like there were like nine bees that she found around the house? Why did you only bring enough for you guys? Like why wouldn't you bring some extras just in case? What if the breaks are like breaks?

Joi: 26:14

Yeah.

Jann: 26:15

I don't know why she was so set on packing light this second time around.

Joi: 26:19

And because both of your family, like both sides of your family are spiritual and Christian, you should have brought some holy water. You should, you had an arsenal to bring. Yeah.

Didi: 26:31

everything.

Joi: 26:32

If I ever found myself in that situation, I would do so much research, like she was ready to go the second time without even looking it up. I did admire Aaron for wanting to do research first so they can get outta there alive, but she didn't wanna do any of that. I,

Didi: 26:46

Right.

Jann: 26:48

I was ready to smack Erin a couple times too throughout the book. Like anytime he brought up Charlize or you don't like her, right? I was ready to say like, my mom is in the fucking hospital. What are you talking about right now? And she would get upset at him and say she's going through something. This isn't the time to think about it. Like, what about you? What about your mother? Like where, I don't understand your motivation for anything.

Didi: 27:11

Yeah. Yeah.

Joi: 27:13

Hmm. I

Jann: 27:14

Very interesting.

Joi: 27:15

It could have been like that teenager mindset though. Like they're very, they can be kind of selfish and just think about how things, well, I mean, it's, your mom will affect you too if she died in the hospital. I don't know. I would be concerned personally.

Jann: 27:30

It didn't, and you would think like her saying that she's not connected at all to her dad and she was worried about like having to move in with him and blah, blah, blah. Like you haven't said two words about your mother. I know more about the Charlize girl than I know anything about your mom. And literally it's your mother. Like, I don't get it. Anyway, she was a very close second, but I felt like she was at least a little bit more logical than, um, Charlize. But yeah, I said Mario was my favorite because I felt like his reactions were appropriate for whatever, like even if he had a asshole phase of the kid.

Joi: 28:05

I didn't have a favorite. The, the closest to a favorite that I had was Poppy, but you

Jann: 28:10

That's true. I did like him.

Didi: 28:12

Mm-hmm.

Joi: 28:13

it was just like, he just seemed kind of like sucky as a parent, I think. Like he was there for her, but like, we couldn't, like, he didn't get groceries or anything. Like they were always eating out. That's not good for a kid. She was sleeping on the futon. You talking about she, you finally gotta get internet and like get a place for her to sleep. Like

Didi: 28:31

I do not have.

Joi: 28:32

weeks. Right. So I was just like, and you're an E M T.

Jann: 28:36

kid?

Joi: 28:37

Yeah. Like that. Like you've been that hands off this whole time. So I don't know, it kind of frustrated me that he wasn't a better, better father, more prepared, but, and the fact that she was so surprised that he was sort of pick her up. So it, I don't know, like even if you're surprised, like I wasn't expecting you to pick me up, but not like, what's going on? Something must be an issue. Like this is an emergency, you know?

Didi: 28:58

Mm-hmm.

Joi: 28:58

So it was one of those things, I think he was very much hands off with her. Um, and then my least favorite. Hmm. I think I'm gonna have to go with Cisco and I think I don't like Cisco's because

Jann: 29:14

I was not expecting that.

Joi: 29:16

he was the one that got all them into this issue playing this stupid game with your drama club or whatever. And then you, I mean like you're backing haunting us and shit, you messed up my mama and then you come into me in dreams and shit and telling me, go help Charlize. I'm like, what? Like, whatcha doing?

Didi: 29:37

What was the,

Joi: 29:41

There wasn't one, like they used to be friends. Charlise and her were friends before when they were younger and she was around because she was friends with Charlize. So Cisco just knew of Raquel basically.

Didi: 29:53

he go to like,

Jann: 29:54

Cisco were cousins and they said that they were super close, and then at the end of their book, it was revealed that they were super close because she had feelings for Raquel and she was the only one like

Didi: 30:04

well, yeah,

Jann: 30:05

one she talked to about it.

Didi: 30:07

but, so that's the reason why he went to Raquel

Joi: 30:10

Right. I'm like, leave me outta it. Mm-hmm. Leave me and my mama out of it.

Jann: 30:17

Like, you already infected my mom, and instead of coming to me and saying, sorry, you tell me to go in there and get infected too.

Didi: 30:26

Because I won't save you after, you know, in fact, my mama, she got a week to live.

Joi: 30:32

Mm-hmm.

Didi: 30:33

No

Jann: 30:34

Thank you.

Joi: 30:35

So Cisco is definitely my least favorite because he started this whole thing off. Like why? Like they said it too, and they was like, what was he doing down there? Like, black people don't do that. Like we don't play those games. So Yeah. Like just didn't make any

Jann: 30:47

And he said he was going for moral support for a friend who couldn't sleep for a couple weeks.

Joi: 30:53

No.

Jann: 30:54

Like send him a gift basket.

Joi: 30:56

Right.

Jann: 30:56

doing? Like

Didi: 30:58

melatonin,

Joi: 30:58

playing that.

Jann: 31:00

buy him a beer you don't like Go play the, okay. So one of the questions that I was gonna ask is, would you play the Echo

Joi: 31:08

Now, you know it's gonna be No.

Jann: 31:10

I'm pretty sure none of us.

Didi: 31:13

Yeah.

Joi: 31:15

Even if it was like a sleepover kind of thing. Like he was saying, like everyone just went. So he went, I'd be like, I'll stay here. I'll wait

Didi: 31:21

mm-hmm.

Joi: 31:22

Keep it warm. See y'all in

Didi: 31:25

I

Joi: 31:25

I guess.

Didi: 31:28

don't find out

Joi: 31:29

Mm-hmm. Yep. Ain't no way no.

Jann: 31:36

I am sitting here quiet, like, would I let them back in? I

Didi: 31:48

home.

Joi: 31:51

Right. You're like, mom, come pick me up. These people, they talking about Echo. I'm.

Jann: 31:59

like if y'all wanted to sneak out and go to a party, I ain't let you back in. But if you're going to play with demons and spirits, you're not bringing that shit back to me. Not today.

Joi: 32:08

up

Didi: 32:08

home and make sure that house is cleansed.

Joi: 32:13

Never talk to them again.

Jann: 32:16

I talked to them at school the next day. If they survived it, I wouldn't be going back over to their house ever. Like,

Joi: 32:24

Not at all.

Jann: 32:28

We talked about how both the main characters were annoying. Um do you feel like the chemistry was at all like, realistic between the two of them?

Didi: 32:36

not at all.

Jann: 32:38

I think the only thing it did for me was like, make me think she was a shitty friend, because I completely agreed with Erin on that. Like, why didn't you just confess instead of like trying to get in the way, like secretly, you know, when she said she told Charlise, like, well just say it without words if you like him. Because she thought he was, she was talking about Aaron

Didi: 32:59

Mm-hmm.

Joi: 32:59

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 33:00

and in her mind she was thinking he won't get it. It's fine. That seems sneaky, like very snake-like. So, uh, yeah, I did not think she was a great friend.

Joi: 33:09

Especially if that's your best friend, Erin too. And you've

Didi: 33:12

Mm-hmm.

Joi: 33:12

for years that he liked her and it seemed like to me when they first introduced Charlize, how everyone liked her. So I thought like, oh, okay. Erin likes her too. No big deal. But then it kind of just seemed like outta left field that she liked her too. I don't know it, it just seemed very forced to me.

Didi: 33:26

Mm-hmm.

Joi: 33:26

when you haven't talked to her in years. Like I understand like, oh yeah, I like her, whatever. Like you also still don't know her. You know? It's been years that you guys talked to each other. It's just, it just, it was a weird like mix. Like it's one of those things where it's like you don't always have to have her romantic relationship in these books. It could just be enough. Like we were besties in middle school and elementary, and I know how important Cisco is to, you have no one else to look to. So it's one of those things, it could have just easily been like that. It don't have to be a relationship every time. So,

Jann: 33:53

and I feel like I'm glad that they have more books out where it is like more queer representation, but to be to your point, I felt like it was very forced. I feel like even if Erin, instead of a character being her best friend was just her girlfriend or she had a girlfriend, like that's another way to introduce a queer couple. Like it, it didn't have to force these two characters together. Like I don't think that fit at all with the story. It made it really unbelievable.

Didi: 34:20

Yeah.

Joi: 34:21

it would be way more modern take just to not have relationships, or she was like, no, Erin, I'm a lesbian. And then keep it moving. Like, like Raquel didn't have to be a part of that at all

Jann: 34:34

Yeah, very true,

Joi: 34:37

You.

Jann: 34:38

true. Actually, now that I think about it, if it had happened the exact same way, like this Charise girl is crushing on her and she kissed her before they got on the bus and she just said, you know, I'm not interested. I would've been fine with that too.

Joi: 34:49

Yeah. Go like, girl,

Jann: 34:52

Like, I like girls, but not you. Your cousin just infected my mom

Joi: 34:56

right? You got me going to a subway at 3:00 AM like this is

Didi: 35:01

Right.

Jann: 35:03

Yeah. Which again, I don't know if I fully made that point, but another reason I really did not like Charlie is like she spoke up and said that we're both going. She was adamant about it, and then she had to convince her to get on the bus when they first started the journey. That was very annoying to me.

Joi: 35:19

I did like though that they said that she was a brown-skinned girl with like hair coils and it's so funny'cause this was before we didn't like Charlize, and I was like, oh, she kind of like makes me think of Jan, like, you know,

Jann: 35:32

Aw.

Joi: 35:32

I like pictured you the whole time with your curly hair out. And I was like, oh, she's kind of like, we're ridiculous. So, yeah.

Jann: 35:41

I hope very early on you were like, she's nothing like Jan.

Joi: 35:46

Yeah.

Jann: 35:47

That's my hope.

Joi: 35:49

Sure.

Jann: 35:51

Whatever joy. So, um, this is kind of late in the discussion, but what are, well, I guess joy, I know your relationship with horror and she reads it all the time. She loves it. But Deedee, do you like read a lot of horror

Didi: 36:07

I do not read a lot of horror, like, um, and I thought, you know, with the zombies, because zombies terrify me, I can't watch it. I can't see anybody kind of walk like a zombie. I don't like it gonna creep into my dreams and scare me. That is like, uh, up there. I would say number two, top fear of mine is to be like walking dead. I don't watch it. Can't do.

Jann: 36:39

have a sister like that, like our oldest sister hates zombies.

Didi: 36:42

Can't do zombies at all. But them zombies weren't scary. I don't, I do like how they described, like she, they kind of sounded like the cane bodies and whatnot, like smelled like it, I guess. But it just, it didn't scare me. This one?

Jann: 36:57

So a couple questions.

Joi: 36:59

uh

Jann: 37:00

of all, what's your number one fear? Now? I need to know

Didi: 37:03

Hello?

Jann: 37:04

Zombies is number two.

Didi: 37:05

my kid. Passing away. Yeah,

Jann: 37:09

completely fair. So zombies is up there with that. That's crazy.

Didi: 37:13

that.

Jann: 37:14

That's a phobia.

Didi: 37:15

to be, growing up, that was my number one fear. I don't wanna see anything remotely resembling the unid.

Joi: 37:24

Oh

Jann: 37:24

girl. And it wasn't that scary.

Didi: 37:28

And this one wasn't that.

Joi: 37:32

Hmm.

Jann: 37:32

I'll say this, I never reho, I'm such a chicken and not with zombies funny enough. Like I actually like zombies when they move slow because

Joi: 37:41

Slow zombies.

Jann: 37:42

that. Yeah,

Joi: 37:43

World Row Z zombies now. That's the problem.

Jann: 37:46

Yeah, that's an issue. But, um, yeah, I'm such a chicken, chicken and chicken. I forgot this was a horror book. Like even we were preparing for the recording today. I had to go back and check like, are we sure this was a, it was not scary at all.

Didi: 38:02

It had the potential

Jann: 38:04

Ier.

Didi: 38:05

I think that the, um, the echo and what was in it had the potential to be a really great horse. Give it to Steven King. He would've scared the ever loving shed out of me with it. But I feel like it could have gone so many ways. Good. And I felt it was very unfortunate that it did not.'cause it's, I like the idea. It's an original idea. But you could have explained it better. Like how did it come about and then explained more of the history'cause that history was compelling. Um.

Jann: 38:36

love that they have so much. I actually went up back and looked it up and it's very real. Like the fire in the Bronx and like that whole history, which I guess it was because of slumlords and not updating buildings. All the wiring was very bad, and that's how the fire started to happen. But it got so bad in that area that it was happening every week, like there were just random buildings on fire, which is insane that no one ever did anything about it. But that was a whole theme as well. It's just like red lining and slumlords and racism, like through,

Didi: 39:08

And see for me, I think that's a compelling enough like reason for the echo to exist. So the echo didn't even need to be worldwide. I think making the Echo worldwide just made it even more farfetched, but make it something so like,'cause that's a dark history that gives a lot of negative energy and whatnot. Yeah. What a, what is that one lake that people

Jann: 39:32

uh,

Didi: 39:33

going to and,

Jann: 39:33

the black neighborhood,

Didi: 39:34

yeah.

Joi: 39:35

Yeah.

Didi: 39:36

It was a man,

Joi: 39:38

No, it's not like Travis.

Didi: 39:39

it's somewhere down south where they, um, it was a flourishing black neighborhood that came in. White people. White people, and then put a man lake over it. And then now people Boat, yeah. Lake Laier and people, and they both keep sinking and whatnot because,

Joi: 39:57

And people drown it and stuff. Yeah.

Didi: 40:00

and I think,

Jann: 40:01

of injustice just does not go like unspoken. Of course, it's some haunted shit. Of course it is.

Didi: 40:06

And so that is a compelling enough reason why the echo exists, like

Jann: 40:12

agree. Like doing the, like Reddit conspiracy crap made it less scary because I was in the mindset of Reddit. Conspiracy theories is like insanity. This is not real.

Didi: 40:23

Right. And so then that makes me wonder the point of, um, the slumlord main villain that, like, what was the point of him? Where

Joi: 40:33

yeah. I didn't get it. I didn't think they needed it.

Didi: 40:36

right.

Jann: 40:37

I will say, because I feel like we're getting into the ending, which didn't make sense and I'm glad we're gonna talk about it. But before we get into that, I will say that this was Vincent Tara's, um, debut novel, and they said that, a bunch of people told them that they couldn't do horror with black people because it just didn't exist. And I feel like they actually did that really well. Like the reason they went into the echo.

Didi: 41:05

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 41:06

Kind of made sense because like it was family members that were affected and they were trying to rescue them. Like Charlize. I could understand her going into the Echo. I didn't really understand why Raquel went with her other than like, I feel like the romance was forced, which we discussed. But if my mom were in a coma, I'd be compelled to go in to help her. I wouldn't ever do it for fun, but I'd do it to save my mom. So that

Joi: 41:28

just been like, not have them be apart, like just have them be best friends. Go like, Hey, my best friend mom is in a coma and my cousin is missing. We're best friends. Let's go. And Aaron is our other best friend. Like, why couldn't they just be a group of friends? You know? Why couldn't they just do that? I don't understand why having them be apart and then come together anyway when you don't explain why they went apart. So it

Jann: 41:53

Yeah, but that one dumb friend or cousin or family member that went and got everybody dragged into it, that actually kind of makes sense to me. And then infected the mom. So they both have their own reasons to go that nothing short of that would've made me get in there. I will tell you that

Joi: 42:13

I was actually very disappointed because there were some creepy parts in the story. Like, um, the little boy looking for her and she was hiding in the closet and when she tried to come out, it snatched her back from behind. And then,

Didi: 42:26

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 42:28

that was the last creepy part.

Joi: 42:30

The part when, um, she was at the playground as a kid and no one had faces. It was one of those, and I was just like, what is going on? You know, it was kind of creepy. And then it just went downhill from there. I was like, what happened to all the creepiness? I liked the idea of the false, false promises per me sauce. I liked that, but then it just turned into a, so it wasn't

Didi: 42:49

Yeah.

Joi: 42:50

anymore. And I kind of wish, like, like I like the story, but I just felt like there was different ways to go about it. Like, why would these people haunt her unless she was just like psychic, a medium sort of. So that's the only people that she could help, but I don't know why they would harm her if they were looking for help. You know what I mean? Or exactly why they're reaching out to her specifically. Like, was she a light or something? You know what I mean? Like it just. There were a couple, or she was, she related to the slumlord in some kind of way, like, I don't know, but it is just, and that's why they would go after her or attack her. I just don't understand how it was happening since she was a kid. And then it just stopped outta nowhere and started up again. I just, I didn't like how it was just like apart, you know what I mean? Like, it didn't, it, it didn't fit together for me at all.

Jann: 43:40

Yeah, I, I agree. Especially with the corduroy guy. Like, I was waiting, waiting patiently for them to explain how he was related to her. And for him to just be an old friend of her dad's didn't make sense to

Didi: 43:52

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 43:53

at all. Like, what? Okay, so you saw him in a picture and that's supposed to explain why he's been haunting you since you were a kid. Like, nah, I don't believe that, especially if he was a lure the same as Cisco. If that's the case, they're both allure. Why was Cisco dying so quickly when he's been around since she was 10 or six or whatever, or four they said she was, when she started having these dreams. I don't know.

Didi: 44:16

But then,

Jann: 44:17

but it just seemed very farfetched.

Didi: 44:19

explained how he died. I don't understand how he got there. Maybe because he died, because as a result of the slumlords slumlord,

Joi: 44:29

Yeah.'cause everyone didn't

Jann: 44:30

case. Why was he allure? But the person who went into the game was also allure like, I don't get that either. Like he called himself a lure. That's not something I'm inferring. Like he said, he was a lure. Said he was a lure. What is a lure? Why?

Didi: 44:45

it wasn't, it's not explained. Yeah. There's, there's just so much not explained in the book that I

Joi: 44:52

the rules, every time they said I broke the rules, but like they broke the rules and were able to leave multiple times. And it's the rule. Just get back on the train by four.'cause that didn't happen either. Like

Didi: 45:04

Right.

Joi: 45:05

all these rules y'all talking about, like you didn't follow a single one of them

Didi: 45:09

And so then why didn't Raquel infect nobody when she broke the rule?

Jann: 45:15

I don't get it. I don't, and I was so mad when she crossed in her hand and that little black thing came up and she held it off to him. Like, if you don't get your gross, what's wrong with you? I slammed the door in her face. Like you, your mom is literally in the hospital right now. You bring that shit in my house is.

Joi: 45:38

That's another thing, like when they put that the mother in quarantine, they didn't take her because she was living with her mom.

Didi: 45:43

Right?

Joi: 45:44

was like step one. It should just like make sure it didn't affect others and then she was in the house then should take

Jann: 45:49

And how many times were they gonna interrogate these kids at school without their parents present? That pissed me off a

Didi: 45:56

Yeah,

Jann: 45:58

And then to say that it was up to her, whether or not she let the police in to see if it has something to do with the house, like why aren't you going to her dad? I understand she has the key, but he is her guardian.

Joi: 46:10

Yeah,

Didi: 46:11

She's still a minor, so Yeah.

Joi: 46:15

But I mean, I don't put it past cops to try to like get around and get what they need to know from the kids without involving parents, but the teacher was there and the teacher should be like, nah.

Didi: 46:24

Yeah.

Jann: 46:24

And again, she should have been bringing up that like whole situation to her dad.

Joi: 46:29

Yeah,

Jann: 46:30

I understand with young adult novels, like it's a whole trope, like, uh, spoken, like blind sight, that they're not gonna involve their parents just so the story can progress. But it annoys me every

Didi: 46:41

Mm-hmm.

Joi: 46:42

Especially coming from adults reading the young adult novels.

Didi: 46:46

Yeah.

Joi: 46:46

And that's one of my issues too. Excuse me, hea. It's one of my issues too, is that a lot of these stories, so many things could've been resolved bringing a responsible, trusted adult into any part of these stories. So I think that's also very, Frustrating for us to read over and over again. Just like, come on guys. Like, I know there's one person that can literally do anything. You know, that happened when Monday's not coming that happened with white smoke. Like literally it just takes one adult. And it kind of, um, it frustrates me, but it also makes me understand like, sometimes you just don't have an adult that's present enough or understanding enough to listen to their child. And we talked about this over and over again. Like, just be there for your kids and have an open communication with your kids. So these things won't happen. So it is just like, I didn't want that to be another reason why I rated it down low, but that's one of the reasons

Jann: 47:41

Well, there's this though, like I do feel like her dad was very open to listening to her and every time she asked a question, he was there to answer it, and he was a very reliable, I feel like he didn't cook. That's one thing he didn't do, but every time she had a question about her past or like the whole spiritual thing, like he did an answer. Even if he was a little flippant when he answered, like he gave her an even her history topic. He was like, yeah, this, this, and this. Oh, and here's a friend. She can tell you about it too. Like there was not one thing she asked that he said like, Stay in a child's place or something like that, you know, like he was constantly talking to her. He, she definitely could have said something

Didi: 48:22

Mm-hmm.

Joi: 48:23

why I liked him. Yeah. That's why I liked him. And that's another reason why I rated the book kind of low too, because every time something came up where she would have to be outta the house, like after like curfew, he would have a reason to not be there. Just out of the blue. Like, oh, you're not grounded anymore. Oh, I have to work late. Here's a key, by the way. Like, oh, this problem solved, you know?

Jann: 48:47

that was so ridiculous. She said she was stressing about it for days and all of a sudden, just so you know, you're not grounded and here's a key in case you wanna sneak in or out.

Joi: 48:56

Basically, I won't be home until six o'clock till, you know, got the

Jann: 49:00

If you have something to do at 3:00 AM you're free to do it.

Joi: 49:04

whatever, you know. It was very confusing to me too when Charlize first went missing and the parents didn't immediately go like, what the hell happened, Raquel, you were here. You know, just like, like, where did she go? What did y'all do? Like the last time I saw y'all, y'all were in the room eating di like pizza, you know, like, where's my daughter at? So I'm surprised I didn't even just drag her ass in at that point. The cops just like,

Jann: 49:28

And it's not even like she was working late. They said she snuck out when she was sleeping, so she's just awake, like, wake up and your kid and the girl is gone and your daughter never comes back. How are you not busting down their door?

Didi: 49:39

Right.

Joi: 49:40

was like, oh, well she walked me out in the morning. Why would she

Jann: 49:43

they didn't ask her that until days later.

Joi: 49:46

Yeah,

Jann: 49:48

Yeah.

Didi: 49:49

And then especially after losing your, I'm assuming nephew goes missing and then your daughter goes missing trust. I'm, I'm, I'm tearing that place apart to find my kid.

Joi: 50:02

the only

Jann: 50:02

I'm not even waiting for the police. I'm gonna tell the police, but if they don't go over there immediately, I'm there. Literally like the night she doesn't show up. I am at your

Didi: 50:13

Mm-hmm.

Joi: 50:13

the only thing I can think about is that in the synopsis of the story, it was like no one cares when black kids go missing. So that's the only thing.'cause the cop was bored the whole time too, so they didn't really care. Just like we're just

Didi: 50:25

Well then where

Joi: 50:26

Where's she at,

Didi: 50:27

the black mama. The black,

Joi: 50:28

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jann: 50:31

exactly what I'm saying. I'll tell the police, but if my kid is not here tonight, nobody's getting sleep

Joi: 50:36

Yeah.

Jann: 50:38

like you, your windows will be bust in. Trust me, you're coming to this door and telling me where my daughter is. Especially like you said, deedee, like after her nephew already missing like, no, it's not going down like this.

Didi: 50:53

Yeah. That would've made it more believable.

Joi: 50:57

Mm-hmm. I don't get it.

Jann: 51:01

Or even like, I don't understand why a better excuse wasn't. Yeah, she wanted to go play that echo game at 3:00 AM so I went home

Joi: 51:10

Yeah,

Jann: 51:11

that would've been a good excuse and it would've put them on the right trail. So you don't have to keep going back and forth like what's happening.

Didi: 51:18

Exactly.

Joi: 51:19

They might ask you what the echo game is. I'll be like, look it up.

Jann: 51:22

I would've told them, it's this game where these crazy ass people go on the train at 3:00 AM You should probably go look into that. Play the game. Why not? You have guns? I have a bat.

Didi: 51:31

Yeah, exactly

Joi: 51:34

True. And I didn't like that whole

Jann: 51:35

them the whole thing.

Joi: 51:37

I didn't like the standoff

Didi: 51:38

right. Yeah, that standoff is terrible.

Joi: 51:41

I didn't, I didn't care for it at all.

Didi: 51:44

So like how did the cops get in to sort of like the in between?

Joi: 51:49

They were just at the subway at the wrong time. They were following them.

Jann: 51:52

So I guess the bugs came into the real world, the way Cisco was appearing and disappearing, which still, I have no idea how that was happening. They didn't really explain it, but yeah, it seemed like they were very much still in the real world. And when they were gonna get on the bus, the cops tried to stop them and that's why the Echo killed them.

Joi: 52:09

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 52:10

But I don't know how they got there. Like

Didi: 52:14

Yeah,

Jann: 52:14

was,

Didi: 52:16

and then conveniently the cameras were shut

Jann: 52:19

camera, the echo was very sophisticated. They got their hacker goals to go ahead and disable the cameras.

Joi: 52:29

I thought it was, I thought it was funny. Kinda like a nod to like, cops always have their body cameras off, so now it's kind of like,

Jann: 52:37

I wish you had, I bet you wish you had it on that time.

Didi: 52:41

They should know that the cops was trailing them kids, you know, following them. So you would think there would be, especially when with the police, one of their own, two of their own go dead, they would be harassing all in kids.

Joi: 52:56

Especially in New York. Yes,

Didi: 52:58

Mm-hmm.

Joi: 52:59

absolutely.

Jann: 53:01

Wait. And then the random white kids that got lost being cannibals, what was that about?

Didi: 53:09

that, that part, and I kind of, I was like, I was also working a little bit so I kind of missed some of it, but they just wanted to get out and they knew that, they figured that Raquel could get them out and then all she, all of a sudden, bye, I don't care about you. Lemme go get my friends. And I'm just like, you just gonna leave

Jann: 53:26

I feel like one of them wanted her to help'em, and then the other one was just like, yeah, let's eat her fingers. What? Like, how did you survive this whole time? Like you don't seem like you're being quiet at all.

Joi: 53:39

Yeah. I didn't understand. Like I don't, I don't know why they were zombies. I thought they would be more like ghosts, you know?'cause they're, they're all pretty much dead, you know? I dunno,

Didi: 53:50

How did they die?

Joi: 53:51

make sense

Didi: 53:52

How did they die?

Joi: 53:55

what the

Jann: 53:55

mean the Echo people or the Ford Ham four

Didi: 53:58

The kids, the.

Jann: 54:00

the Oh the kids. Okay. So that was interesting too because she said like, we are a part of the neighborhood, you don't wanna hurt us. So they immediately turned to the white kids like you not a part of this neighborhood. And them, she was like, we don't hurt each other. And they were like, oh, okay. But y'all, that's fair game.

Joi: 54:28

yeah. I don't, I don't know.

Jann: 54:30

So what did you guys think about the actual ending? Like, which I bet we could all pick one plot hole in the ending that we didn't like.'cause they were a lot.

Didi: 54:40

apply ho for me was how the hell did what they did save her mom.

Jann: 54:47

That's a big one.

Joi: 54:48

Because they didn't destroy anything really. They kept

Didi: 54:50

Yeah. I'm pretty sure the echo was still there. Right.

Jann: 54:53

The echo was still there and they said like they were, she killed the slum Lord. And he said that they, he would keep coming back.

Joi: 54:59

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 55:00

So I don't understand after the neighborhood killed the slumlord, why he wouldn't keep coming back, you know? And like the fact that the ary guy died and he said it was for the final time. Like why

Didi: 55:11

Why? How, yeah.

Joi: 55:14

Maybe it's because like the people finally stopped blaming her, I guess, or coming to her and it was like, oh, it's a slum mow. Let's take care of him myself.

Didi: 55:22

What to do with Cordy?

Joi: 55:25

Right. That's the thing,

Jann: 55:27

the fact that Cisco said he was staying back to fight the slum Lord, like he was gonna get back up after the people killed him. So the people killed him. He should have got back up. Then Cisco had his turn. Like why did Corduroy guy die? Like it was just a lot,

Didi: 55:40

Mm-hmm.

Joi: 55:42

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 55:43

or, okay. The fact that the police at the end gave up after she said she was sleepwalking and someone attacked her.

Didi: 55:49

Thank you. The did not match up at all. And then they just let, I gotta go smoke. I need to go smoke. So I'm,

Joi: 56:03

I

Jann: 56:03

I feel like that was a, sorry. Go ahead. Joy.

Joi: 56:05

no, I just wish half of the time that he took to wrap everything up would've went into explaining literally any other point like that he put up, the ending went on for so long, and it is just like, okay. All right. And

Jann: 56:20

they didn't do a good job of that. the fact, I, I feel like it was a nod to them talking about how, like in the synopsis they said they only look for the white kids. But that was too messy. Like that was too much. Like none of their stories messed up. And your story in particular is that you were sleepwalking and you didn't wake up when someone broke your leg.

Didi: 56:40

And you. you're black in New York, in a red line district, them cops will be on you, like white on rice.

Jann: 56:49

Exactly.

Didi: 56:49

And you were

Jann: 56:50

they would've just put you in jail just for calling the

Didi: 56:53

officers that wound up dead mysteriously. You're somehow connected to, uh, dude, Cisco, who they portrayed as a violent thug and whatnot. He is missing, there's no way

Joi: 57:07

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Jann: 57:10

No way. Absolutely not.

Joi: 57:14

Like they take people in on half the evidence, like it all pointed to her.

Jann: 57:19

people in on zero evidence.

Didi: 57:22

you, like, you fit the description, so

Jann: 57:25

Yeah.

Didi: 57:27

Yeah. Yep.

Jann: 57:29

Yeah, so that was another plot hole that was like, I just don't understand at all what's happening right now.

Didi: 57:37

And then her mom can be woke up. It's just, it's too much. Yeah.

Joi: 57:41

Yeah.

Jann: 57:42

woke up and then we already talked about how like the entire book leading up to them figuring out the echo game, Cisco kept talking about the rules as if it was hammered into him every second, and then like they broke all the rules and nothing happened.

Didi: 57:56

No consequences.

Jann: 57:59

Yeah.

Didi: 58:00

And so then I wanna know, did that girl Olivia miraculously get healed?

Jann: 58:08

That was just the Bronx. All those other echoes, they're on their own.

Joi: 58:14

Also, I'm thinking if it's the Bronx, like, you know how they said that the echo would take on a certain form? Why was it a centipede and not like a rat?

Didi: 58:22

Right.

Joi: 58:22

it should have been a rat.

Didi: 58:25

Right.

Joi: 58:26

I had no clue,

Didi: 58:28

But.

Jann: 58:28

Centipedes are creepier. It's all the legs.

Joi: 58:33

I

Didi: 58:33

Yeah, they're, but I'll say like a cool thing was how, like they could remember what the, um, Bronx looked like for them, and then it would appear. So, I don't know. Like I feel like more could, could have been developed with that. That wasn't, so there was a lot.

Jann: 58:50

interesting to me because they said the school was a safe place. So when she imagined that tailor shop, had she just run into the tailor shop, she would've been fine because they can't go into the future. Right.

Joi: 59:04

that's true.

Didi: 59:05

Yeah.

Joi: 59:05

did say that.

Jann: 59:06

So weird.

Joi: 59:07

into the future. What does that mean? Never explain it.

Didi: 59:12

feel like there were so many missed

Joi: 59:13

I don't know. It's like a lot of potholes. I wish you had a little bit extra time to explain

Didi: 59:19

Mm-hmm.

Joi: 59:19

about it.

Didi: 59:21

I feel like.

Jann: 59:21

was a corduroy guy so unique? Like he even said like, why aren't they attacking me? Yeah. Even if he is a lure, Cisco was a lure. He didn't have any control. He was dying fast. This guy was a lure and apparently all the ghosts listened to him. Like when she said, why aren't they attacking me? He was like, oh, it's because you're with me. What is your significance, sir? Like what's happening here? Like at first I thought he was really the slumlord, like disguise, but no, he was just a random lure.

Joi: 59:53

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 59:53

So weird.

Joi: 59:55

It was super weird. Like it, it is just sometimes we try to dissect stories that weren't plotted out well. It's just you're coming to a dead end, and I think that's the issue with this book. Like

Didi: 1:00:05

you are.

Joi: 1:00:05

wasn't thought out all the way, like you started things and never finished them, and that's all. all you can do.

Jann: 1:00:12

That's fair.

Joi: 1:00:14

I thought that being said, it's definitely not going on the bookcase.

Jann: 1:00:22

You know, not all of them make it. Not all of them make it. Um, all right. So anything else you guys wanna bring up before we like, recap our ratings and see if they've changed?

Joi: 1:00:33

Uh, the only thing I can, um, think about is just that little conversation Raquel and Erin had about winning Charlize, and I was like, that's right out of Aladdin, you know, she even said, oh, she's not a trophy. She should get a saved too. And I was just like, yeah,

Jann: 1:00:48

I am not apprised to be one.

Joi: 1:00:52

They just annoyed the hell outta me with this whole crush shit. Like, it was just, just leave that out, you know?

Didi: 1:00:56

Yeah.

Jann: 1:00:58

It was very unbelievable For sure.

Didi: 1:01:00

It was not a strong enough connection to my motivation.

Joi: 1:01:05

nah, didn't care. I didn't like it.

Jann: 1:01:09

So are you guys changing your ratings or is this still two and a half?

Joi: 1:01:13

I'm, I'm bringing it down to a one star. I,

Jann: 1:01:16

Ouch. Alright.

Didi: 1:01:16

I was bringing it down to A too, I was like, lemme take that half off. I said, let me, uh, put that half point on just to be a little bit nicer, but I'm taking it back. I'm taking it back. So just two,

Joi: 1:01:35

I feel bad'cause I know that this is his first story, like this and

Jann: 1:01:38

first story?

Joi: 1:01:40

first story. Yes. And I'm just, it's just. Every first time ain't a good one. You know, I appreciate you writing black people into a horror novel. I'm glad you put some thought into it, but I think just a little bit more or a little less, you know, keep it as ghosts, you know, that's all you have to do. And figure out like how to put them to rest. Anything like that, you know, leave the romance out of it next time. Like you just don't need all of the elements into one story.

Didi: 1:02:06

They don't have like editors

Joi: 1:02:08

instead of doing five different plots and do them half-ass.

Didi: 1:02:11

right. Oh, they don't have like a editor that will read this and be like,

Jann: 1:02:17

Yeah, you would think the editor would've talked him outta some of this stuff.

Didi: 1:02:20

yeah.

Joi: 1:02:22

yeah, you would think. But you know, everyone has different tastes, everyone has different flavors, but knowing how many stories we've read and how many books we've gone through, these are a few things that we kind of pick up on a little bit more now.

Didi: 1:02:35

Mm-hmm.

Joi: 1:02:36

So, you know, just food for thought. You know, maybe someone else out there gave five stars. Who knows? Maybe it's just wasn't for us.

Jann: 1:02:45

Okay, so I wanna change my rating. I kind of do wanna bring it down to a two and a half, even though I feel like that's very harsh to take away a whole star. But yeah, I think I'm gonna leave it at a two and a half.

Joi: 1:02:56

I took away a star and a half. It doesn't start to go downhill till like mid book, so.

Didi: 1:03:04

just going downhill. I feel bad.

Jann: 1:03:09

Yeah.

Joi: 1:03:10

up one, nah. Mm-hmm.

Jann: 1:03:14

No, I'm gonna keep it at a two and a half and I feel strongly I'm not taking away any more stars.

Didi: 1:03:22

I think I'm giving one

Joi: 1:03:24

All right.

Didi: 1:03:24

the one star for, you know, this person attempting to do a horror. That's not easy, I don't think. And a black horror. And then the other star is, I like the idea of the echo. That's it.

Joi: 1:03:43

Mm-hmm.

Didi: 1:03:44

But really, I think that could all be one

Joi: 1:03:45

Yeah.

Jann: 1:03:46

that's it. That's fair. That's fair. All right, well I think that pretty much wraps up this book. Um, unless there are any other final comments.

Joi: 1:03:58

Nah.

Didi: 1:03:59

Nope, I got all my thoughts out.

Jann: 1:04:01

well, if you want a chance to win this book, um, even though we dragged it a little bit, um, go ahead and, uh, give us a review on wherever you're listening to this on, um, YouTube, Spotify, apple Podcast, wherever. Give us a five star review, please, and then let us know what book you would like us to review. and yeah, we'll do a drawing and if you win, we'll send you a copy of the book.

Joi: 1:04:27

That's right.

Jann: 1:04:28

All right, so let me go ahead and announce the book for next week. It's called A Deadly Scoop by Abby Collette. And it is a mystery, a deadly insight scoop. So synopsis recent N B A grab Bwin crest has taken over her family's ice cream shop in Chagrin Falls, Ohio, and she's going back to basics. When is renovating Cresty Creamery to restore its former glory, and filling the menu with delicious, homemade ice cream flavors. Many from her grandmother's original recipes, but unexpected construction delays means she misses the summer season and the shop has a literal cold opening the day she opens her doors and early snow descends on the village and keeps the customers away to make matters worse. That evening one finds a body in the snow and it turns out the dead man was a grifter with an old feud with a cruise family. Soon when's father is implicated in his death is not easy to juggle a new to her business while solving a crime, but when is determined to do it. With the help of her quirky best friends and her tight-knit family, she'll catch the ice cold killer before she has a meltdown.

Joi: 1:05:40

That is a hell of a synopsis.

Jann: 1:05:44

First of all, I feel like we're from Ohio, so we know the frustration with the snow and early snows and just being cold in general. Um, but I love how many puns are in that synopsis,

Joi: 1:05:55

Yeah, yeah,

Jann: 1:05:57

the ice cold killer before she has a meltdown.

Joi: 1:06:01

yeah. Very, very pun. Punty. Do you think it's gonna actually be a mystery? I know we did a mystery before in Jasmine, one of our guests, podcasters said, no,

Jann: 1:06:15

I feel like since they already pointed out that there is a murder and that they're trying to figure out who it is, I think it'll be a honest to God mystery. So,

Joi: 1:06:23

I hope so. I got fingers crossed.

Jann: 1:06:24

We wanna hear your opinion, so write to us, Jody, wanna tell'em where they can reach us?

Joi: 1:06:30

Yep. You can reach us at Black Girl Reads Podcast. The black is spelled b l k. On TikTok, Instagram and Gmail. Um, on Twitter though is Black Girl Reads Pod because podcast is too long.

Jann: 1:06:47

All right. And Deedee, do you wanna tell people where they can find you if they wanna reach out?

Didi: 1:06:52

Yeah, so I am on Instagram and Facebook. I do have a TikTok, but I don't know how to use that all that well. So just realized that you could send messages on me, so I'm like so behind. but I just go, as Deedee Etta on Facebook and Instagram if you would like to follow me.

Jann: 1:07:10

Alright, well thank you everybody and I see you have a cute baby there. Hi.

Didi: 1:07:16

That's jj, my son say Hi,

Jann: 1:07:19

jj.

Didi: 1:07:20

He was like, no, I don't want it.

Jann: 1:07:22

Right? He's like, what is this? I did not sign up for this.

Didi: 1:07:26

Can you say hi?

Jann: 1:07:29

Hi. All right. Thanks so much for joining us.

Didi: 1:07:36

You are welcome.

Jann: 1:07:38

hopefully we'll get you one for another one,