Speaking with Power and Authenticity: 'I'm Not Yelling' | BLK Girl Reads Ep. 10

Hey there, fellow bookworms and podcast pals! 📚🎙️ Get ready to dive into the latest episode of BLK Girl Reads, your go-to source for book reviews and recommendations. In this episode, we're shining a spotlight on 'I'm Not Yelling' by the talented author Elizabeth Leiba.

Join me and some special guests as we navigate the pages of this powerful nonfiction book that delves deep into the experiences of black women in the workplace. We'll discuss everything from code switching to confronting microaggressions, all while celebrating the resilience and strength of black career women.

If you're a fan of Booktube and love insights from Booktubers, this episode is a must-listen. We're bringing you a review that's more than just a summary; it's a conversation about the realities of racism at work and the unique challenges faced by black women.

So, whether you're already familiar with 'I'm Not Yelling' or it's on your TBR list, grab your headphones and join us for an engaging discussion that goes beyond the book. We'll explore real-life examples of microaggressions in the workplace and dive into the Black Career Women's Network, all through the lens of this thought-provoking book.

# Microaggressions

Transcript

Jann: 0:00

Navigate Corporate America fearlessly. Explore the data and hear the accounts of black women in business who face work through and rise above workplace discrimination. This book offers a blueprint for black women in business to tackle a toxic work environment and assert their rightful place facing obstacles such as imposter syndrome, a structural racism, I'm not yelling. Armed you with knowledge and strategy needed to succeed in the face of adversity. Become a strong black leader, and instill positive chain in the workplace. Culture, I'm not yelling, is your guide to understanding and implementing changes in human resource management that promote diversity and inclusion. Celebrate the significance of black history. Mom define racism in subtle and aort forms, and emerge as a beacon of strength and resilience. All right. Welcome back to Black Girl Reads Everyone, as normal. I'm your host Jan.

Joi: 0:52

And I enjoy the party. Woo.

Jas: 0:58

And I'm Jasmine. I'm here as a guest today.

Jann: 1:02

Awesome. And we're here for our 10th and final episode of Season one, and we're going over, I'm not yelling by Elizabeth Liba.

Joi: 1:12

That was

Jann: 1:12

full title is

Joi: 1:13

Sorry. Yeah.

Jann: 1:15

full title was, I'm Not Yelling, A Black Woman's Guide to Navigating the Workplace.

Joi: 1:20

Ooh, look at that beautiful book.

Jann: 1:24

I didn't know you had the physical one. Joy. Nice. It's very pretty.

Jas: 1:28

It is.

Joi: 1:29

I love like the line art.

Jann: 1:33

Joy, do you wanna start us off with the rating then?

Joi: 1:36

Okay. I give it a four and a half star. Like it is a really good book, but there's something that's missing there for me that make it a five star and I'll get into it later.

Jann: 1:51

Okay. Sounds good. Jas, do you wanna give us your rating?

Jas: 1:54

Yeah, I actually have a similar rating of joy. I give it a four out of five and, um, I, I really like Elizabeth Le, I follow her on LinkedIn, but I agree there was something missing from it. But what was there was awesome.

Jann: 2:11

Okay. We're all pretty similar. Then I also give this one a four and a half star out a five. Um, And it was more so I think about pacing for me, but I related so much to everything she said in this book with corporate America that yeah, it had to be a, a very high rating. So yeah, very similar ratings. And I'm gonna go ahead and give our spoiler alert now because we're gonna jump into the book discussion and, talk about everything that's in there. All right. So let's start off with our first discussion question. Our first one is actually just about the genre nonfiction. Is this a genre that you guys read often? will you revisit it if not?

Joi: 2:53

This is something like non-fiction. It's not my go-to, but lately there has been a lot of non-fiction books that have come out that I had interest in, like Michelle Obama's books, um, what was the other one? Shoot, what was the other book? That was, uh, the one by, uh, Viola Davis. I read that one. Um,

Jann: 3:14

like memoirs

Joi: 3:15

Spare. So those, I've been kind of like into, but normally nonfiction is like a, especially not in the Vice book, so that was completely new to me. So, I really enjoyed it. I don't know if I'm missing something like this is a genre and I've been missing out on, or if this is just a good book.

Jann: 3:32

Yeah. So you mentioned a lot of memoirs and not like self-help books. I think this falls more in the self-help categories. Um, so those are books you wanna get into and we'll definitely get into some of those in future seasons, memoirs especially. But are there any other self-help books that you've read or like find notable?

Joi: 3:50

No, not at all. No. That's usually never something that if I have to write it and I'm like, I'll skip it.

Jann: 3:57

So new territory. I like that.

Joi: 3:59

Yeah.

Jann: 4:02

You wanna give us like your answer?

Jas: 4:04

Yeah. So, um, j Janice knows this about me, but, uh, self-help is pretty much like my genre that like got me into the world of reading. Like this is where I spent a lot of my reading time. So, um, self, like, I love The Secret, I love, um, atomic habits. Anything that helps you like just become a better person and, and adjust your, um, mindset to be a better person. And what was nice about this one? Which is funny because I feel like this genre is led by a lot of white men typically. Like, that's usually who, who run this space, as in I think a lot of territories. Right. Um, but this one was very special because I liked that she's getting very specific, not black men, not women of color, black women specifically, because there are things that we go through that no one else experiences in the workplace. Um, so yeah, this is a genre I enjoy and, I enjoy this even more because it was so specified to me.

Jann: 5:12

Okay. I like that. I feel like I fall into the middle of you guys. Um, and just a quick story, because Jasmine said that she, um, spends a lot of her time in nonfiction, but it was literally a hundred percent of her time. Just a quick little side story I had to. Infiltrate Jasmine's book club that she used to be in. She was in a book club forever and I had been recommending fiction books to her for years and she never took me up on one of my recommendations because she didn't like fiction. I had to infiltrate the book club and convince them to read a book that I recommended to her. Just for her to read it.

Joi: 5:51

Wow.

Jas: 5:52

Oh my God. Well, if it makes you feel like

Jann: 5:57

Yeah, I was there. Yeah, she knew, but you know, I just kind of had to force her hand a little. Right. Ja. It was Red Rising and she loved it.

Jas: 6:05

I did love it. It's hard going from one to a new genre. It's not as hard for me anymore. Um, because now, like if you look at my book, all the books I read, I have fantasy here. I have Thriller there. I got self-help here, I got memoir there. But when you're first getting started off, I feel like everyone kind of stays in their lane. Like these are the books I like. I'm gonna keep reading these books. Um, so that's why I like, I like the idea of this like a book club because it helps you expand your horizons.

Joi: 6:31

That's so interesting because like, so my thing was when I read books, it's more of a form of escapism. I usually like to escape into a book and you know, see a new world, see like a new life or whatever. Right. And it's probably why I've been reading memoirs too, like you're still escaping to someplace, but a self-help book like this makes you kind of like internalize that more. And I'm just wondering, like, it's funny because jazz, you said that you used it for self-help. That's why you read. So it's like we're reading for two completely opposite reasons. I thought that was really interesting. You know,

Jas: 7:05

It is interesting. It's hard to balance too, because I do like to grow, but also I've now adapted to the escapism. That is a book where I'm not reading something, some type of fiction. I'm like, oh, life is so boring with how like I'm a world to escape to occasionally. So Yeah. I get it.

Jann: 7:26

and this is exactly why I say I feel like I fall in between you guys on nonfiction and fiction. Um, all of my time really is spent in fiction. It's fantasy in particular, fantasy and romance. Um, And I rarely read self-help. And if I do with something very, like specific like, um, the four hour work week when I'm sick of work or, um, what is the, a rich dad, poor dad, when I was into real estate, uh, I rarely read memoirs, but I do like them when I read them. But yeah, not often, but I do, I, I've read enough that I feel like I can't say I'm a beginner, so.

Joi: 8:01

Yeah. Even with you, Jen, you read different genres of books. For me, it's just amazing when you see like there's books for everybody.'cause there's thousands and thousands, millions of books. So it's almost like, I don't like to read. It's like, you haven't tried it. There's different avenues. There's different avenues to go down, man.

Jann: 8:19

Yeah, definitely. What was Roxanne Gay's book called?

Jas: 8:25

Bad feminist.

Jann: 8:26

Bad Feminist. That was what it was. I think that's the only other self-help book I've read that was like a black female author.

Joi: 8:35

That should be on the list. I haven't seen that one. Maybe I read

Jas: 8:38

one wasn't more like a, it wasn't a self-help, but it was nonfiction. It was like short stories or essays.

Jann: 8:45

Yeah.

Joi: 8:46

So it wasn't just her, it was different black women coming in to contribute to the book.

Jas: 8:51

it was all her, but short stories by Roxanne Gay. And she's interesting too because she's queer, overweight black woman and she talks about all these different elements and like she has different stories for different, you know, elements of who she is, which is very cool.

Joi: 9:11

hmm. That's awesome. I'm like, I'm just astonished by the amount of books out there and the genres. It's for everybody.

Jas: 9:19

Agree.

Jann: 9:22

Yeah. So back to this book. Um, our next question. So the concept of yelling in the book extends beyond just raising one's voice. How did the author broaden this definition? How did it impact your perspective on code switching? That was what this book is really about, right? Like, um, her code switching in the workplace and how she has developed professionally and personally to kinda overcome the need to code switch in her professional life. So, Any thoughts to that?

Jas: 9:54

All right. So when I saw the title of the book, I had a very emotional reaction to it because, um, for me, you asked what does yelling mean in this, in this case. And for me, the first thing I thought is how people perceive you, the assumptions people make about you before you even say anything. Um, so, you know, I, I know that's some people, they'll look at me and assume things, usually the worst, that I'm angry or that I have an attitude or that I'm not professional. Um, just, just a lot of assumptions being made. So the fact that she made the title that I'm not yelling. It was just like, is a book for me because I know I have a long list of assumptions people made about me or said about me that were just untrue. Not, you know, just completely false and doing it in real time, pretty much just gaslighting, being gaslit. Uh, so I appreciated the title in that regard. And, um, yeah, just going into the gaslighting thing, like that's what it is. Like you are gast as a black woman in the workplace. And, um, her acknowledging that in that title, like, it just, it says so much more. And you know, I think if you're a black woman, then it already resonates with you and brings back like thoughts and stories and different experiences that you unfortunately have experienced because you are a black woman.

Joi: 11:20

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 11:21

What stands out to me about that is it's so rare where you can say one phrase and relate to a whole culture. And as soon this is actually a recommendation from you, Jasmine, um, this book. And as soon as you told me, I'm reading this book, it's called, I'm Not Yelling immediately, I was nodding my head like, yes, mm-hmm. I know exactly what this is about. So yeah, that was interesting.

Joi: 11:49

I actually really like this book and I love the title of it. And something that I think is interesting when you say I'm not yelling is like when you're talking to black women in the way that we grow up, it's like, I'm not yelling, I'm just loud, or I'm just animated, or I talk with my hands or you know, all the things you're not supposed to do in a professional setting. You know, all the things that's looked down upon. And then it's like, you know, you have to restrict yourself when you're in the office or you have to like, kind of like, you know, hide your true self from your coworkers. You know, so anything that relates to that, we're used to, that goes with like a a v e, our expressions, how loud we are, how we laugh, you know, it's crazy how down to how you laugh when you're like, even on a Zoom call, that's always, um, looked at as unprofessional when you're a black woman. So, um, even like how we are now, me with my Afro jazz, with her head wrapped, Jan, just your hair pulled back, it would be an issue with someone probably in the workplace. So, um, I really like how mm-hmm.

Jann: 12:56

So I was gonna say, what's interesting is that I find it's not even just in the workplace. I find like even in my personal life, if I'm having a disagreement with someone who is not black, and um, it's not an argument necessarily, but if we're having a debate about anything, and if I use my hands or if I get excited, um, they will use it as a point against you. Like, why are you getting so excited? Or, oh my goodness, calm down. It's not that like, I'm not upset, I'm just talking like,

Joi: 13:25

Or even at a restaurant, they're like, oh, can you tell those black women to calm down over there? Like, I don't know if they're gonna fight, or they're just too loud and they're over there having a good time. You know? So I can see it. Yeah, you're right. In other places other than the workspace, but

Jann: 13:39

which is the point you brought up in the book that, um, you see if someone who's non-black sees a group of black people interacting, a lot of the times they mistake it as confrontation.

Joi: 13:51

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 13:53

And I'm like, that's just so interesting to me. Um, interesting is a good word. Like too, like what do I mean by interesting? Is it offensive? I don't know if I'm offended or not that people take that as confrontation. You know, I'm not exactly sure how to feel like you're, they're happy. They're talking at, like they're animated when they're talking and there's nothing wrong with that.

Jas: 14:16

But if you really break that down, like why would that bother people? It it, I think what it comes down to is black joy is what the problem is. Like black people thriving is the problem. And like she talked about making herself smaller because if you occupy any space where there was white people, it's like, how dare you be comfortable here? How dare you like, um, you know, be yourself and like bleed there. We live in a culture where unfortunately, Black women aren't supposed to be the leads. We're not the princesses. We are the side character. And if we go outside of that norm, then it's a problem. And in that same realm, the, the idea of black people, for people who don't have any black friends, is rapport. We have a hard life. We're struggling all the time. We're not thriving at all. So when we go outside of that, especially in the workplace, it's, it becomes a problem. So that's something interesting. Um, within itself too. It really makes you wonder about like the psychology and the history behind some of people's, like, you know, Just why they do some of the things they do and they're doing on a subconscious level, and they're being like, they're in a society where people are saying, yeah, that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to interrupt black people when they're making too much noise. That's what you're supposed to do. You supposed to call the police on'em when they're congregating and no one thinks twice. Like, Hey, that's kind of racist. Hey, you probably shouldn't be doing that. You know? Um, so yeah.

Joi: 15:58

only not that, but it's also like when you call the police, they're gonna take my side, the white side.'cause I'm the one that's presentable and Right all the time. There's never a doubt of I'm gonna call the police and they're gonna believe me over you, so.

Jas: 16:13

Right.

Joi: 16:13

Mm-hmm.

Jas: 16:14

There's audacity there.

Jann: 16:17

which I feel like contributes a lot to like, um, the white tendency to victim, not victim, to play the victim. You know, like if you stand up for yourself and say, Hey, that's not what's happening here. Like, I'm actually doing what I'm supposed to do. If you give any kind of pushback, here come the tears. Here come the, okay, well maybe I was wrong, but you're being too mean about it. I don't understand why, which is another point she brought up in the book, right when she asked someone to stop speaking over her, after he had been doing it multiple times in a meeting, everyone looked at her as if she was the villain.

Joi: 16:52

Um.

Jas: 16:52

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 16:53

know, after that call, her boss called her and said, you can't speak up for yourself like that. That was way too aggressive and didn't address at all the fact that she was being cut off multiple times during the meeting.

Jas: 17:06

Can I just say like, there are so many occasions you just gave that example, that story. There are so many stories she told where I'm like, Was she looking in my window like this exact scenario happened to me. Like seriously, that exact same thing where I was giving a talk at work in front of a group of men who did not like a younger black women speaking to them and telling them what their orders were, which was my job. And they kept interrupting me, being belligerent, saying rude things to me. And when I said, Hey you, you are supposed to just sit back and listen, like I'm here just doing my job. You do your job, we're good. And I, no one said anything to these people who were being flat out disrespectful to me. But my boss talked to me about not being so combative. This is the first time anyone used the word combative in my language. And I'm like, do you know me? Like

Joi: 18:01

Mm-hmm.

Jas: 18:02

combative? I'm like, did you hear what this person was saying to me? Because. A couple weeks ago you told me that I shouldn't let people railroad me in meetings. Meaning I was in meetings where people kept talking over me while I'm trying to get my words out and I couldn't get anything out. And again, they didn't get address. Only I got address for letting people railroad me. So I said, which is it? Is it that I'm combative or am I'm being railroaded? And he is like, well, I guess it's, find a nice medium. Okay. Well, I don't know what to tell you.

Joi: 18:33

Wow, you that's, that's crazy. It's just, you know, they see the issue and she said that, she said, instead of going to the person that caused the issue, that made me uncomfortable, they went back to me and said I was the issue. You know, it's crazy. Um, but, uh, to bring it back a little bit just to the part about, I'm not yelling, um, in the forward. So when I first got the book and I opened it and I read the Forward, I was like, hold on, let me just go ahead and get a highlighter.'cause I think I'm gonna need to highlight some stuff. So there's a few things I highlighted in the four just by Lisa, um, Hurley, which is one of her friends, right? And some of the things she said was, why are you yelling when someone asks you? That is a way to weaponize, a weaponized way to police our tone, you know, manipulate us and to quiet submission, and it's meant to mute our voice. And that hit hard. I was like, yes, that's exactly what it does. If someone asks you, why are you yelling? Some people go like, well, I'm not, I'm just hanging out with my friends or whatever. Like, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was so loud or I was bothering you. You know? And then what do you do? You quiet down. You like, you know what I mean? Like, it's one thing if you're in a restaurant and you're talking, you're kind of loud, but it's like, If you're, like Jan said, when she was in a position of going back and forth with someone and all of a sudden she's looked at as combative. You too, Jess. So I think that's really important, um, to point out. So, um, that was just a couple of, you know, a few things that I think is that really got me into the book before I even got into the book, you know, so I think that was, yeah. So, um, as we go through, I'm gonna look through my highlights,

Jas: 20:18

Hi.

Joi: 20:19

so, yeah.

Jann: 20:21

Yeah, that story in particular definitely stood out to me when the boss came back and told her that she was the issue in that situation. Um, and it definitely brought me back to my last job that I ended up quitting. Um, there was one meeting in particular about a month to the day that I quit where I was in a meeting with a project manager. Um, my co-project manager on the project where multiple people have complained to me about her, that she didn't know what she was doing, that she was talking too much during the meetings without having anything to say. Um, and in that particular moment I was. Speaking and trying to make a point of what we had to do next. And she cut me off to try to make the point that I was making, um, and made it completely wrong. It was getting people confused. So I spoke up and said, um, do you mind if I just cut in and like clarify something really quick? And she had done this to multiple people during the meeting and I would normally let people finish their statement, but she kept going on and getting people more and more confused. So I had to step up as project manager and her response was, um, no, I would actually like to finish my point, if you don't mind.

Joi: 21:34

Wow.

Jann: 21:37

And I got dinged for that.

Joi: 21:39

Wow.

Jann: 21:39

got dinged for that. She made a complaint and yeah, she made a complaint about me, about that moment and I got a talking to about that. And I did not stay there for very long after. So, Yeah.

Joi: 21:52

You

Jann: 21:52

And it just kills me that like everyone has been complaining about this woman and how she does this, and they want me to get the project on track as a project manager, but when I speak up, it doesn't matter. You know, there's not much that you can do. that's a defeatist attitude, I guess. Like there's a fine

Jas: 22:11

No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I think you, oh, go ahead.

Jann: 22:17

I was just gonna say there's a fine balance between being defeatist and then knowing that there are forces above you that's going to try to keep you down. But, um, what I like about this book a lot is that she has steps at the end that you can try to make the situation better. You know? But I'm sorry, what were you gonna say?

Jas: 22:37

I was gonna say that you bring up a good point and as far as like having a system of support when there are situations where people are targeting you and treating you unfairly. Particularly because you're a black woman and that's what the whole, um, d e I initiatives were supposed to be doing. And surprise, surprise, like, you know, in 2020 this was a huge thing. All the, all the different companies were talking about, black Lives Matter and we're gonna do more. We're gonna hire more diverse roles, we're gonna hire these G E I initiatives, um, people. And what's interesting is in the last year, a lot of these, you see all these people who've been mass fired. These are the people who are being mass fired because it's no longer popular, it's no longer cute. And it's about creating that environment of support. Like your coworkers. It should have been multiple people, not ju just your boss. There should have been multiple people stepping in and saying, will you let her finish? Please? Why do you feel the need to speak over Janice when she's speaking? And you don't do that to anyone else? Why do you feel the need to continue to do this? But. Because one, some people are completely oblivious to the fact that there is something racist happening right now. Then there's the other people who realize there's something racist happening, but they have no backbone and they on top of having no backbone, they don't know what to say because they are so uncomfortable about speaking about race because they live in this privileged society where race doesn't appeal to'em. Like they don't have to acknowledge that the fact that they're white. I just be a person, which must be nice. So I say all of that.

Jann: 24:18

can't relate. Cannot relate.

Jas: 24:20

Exactly. I say all of that. It's not having a defeatist attitude, but there are so many environments where it is just not a place where we could potentially thrive. And it's because we have these cultures, they're, they exist everywhere. You cannot go to a workplace and not have it where. People aren't actively working against it. If you don't have a system of people actively working against racism and sexism and other different, you know, things that can hold people back, it's going to happen. So, yeah, that's it.

Jann: 24:53

Yeah.

Joi: 24:53

That's what, that's something that we touched on too. At the end of our last episode when we talked about this book, I was like, you know, it might seem like it's a podcast geared towards black women, and it's, but as a white person, as a black man, you can see different perspectives and you can work to be anti-racist or anti-sexist. And that's a job, you know, you have to make sure that what you're doing every day is not a microaggression. Say, oh, your hair looks great today. Or like, well, not like that. Exactly, but you know, it's just like, oh, you chased your hair again, or something like that. You know, like, I didn't recognize you. Something like that. Like, I don't know. There's different ways to talk to people without. Offending them even it's by accident. That's you're teaching yourself. That's not making me as a black woman when you offend me with a microaggression at work to not have to teach you, teach yourself basically. And that's when the anti blank comes in, you know?

Jas: 25:49

Right.

Joi: 25:50

Um, Jan, I was gonna ask you, since everyone knew that this guy that was cutting you off, what like happened to other people? Did you bring that up in the meeting? Because he had got dinged for it. So like, what did they end up saying?

Jann: 26:03

So it was a consultancy and it was a white woman actually. Um, which hurts a little bit, you know, I feel like even when they're a different race, I feel like, um, women should have each other's backs in the workplace a little bit. But I felt like she was a little insecure in her title, in her role, especially since she was new to the company. Um, but she was with a different company. Like I said, it was a consultancy. So her boss actually spoke up, um, and said, you know, let's not talk over each other and. So and so, I'm not gonna say her name. Go ahead and finish your point as if she did not interrupt me. And because they were the customer is why it got back to my boss, because we should be doing what they want, even though the project, um, uh, it's the responsibility of their project ultimately falls on us. It's a very tricky place to

Joi: 26:51

Mm-hmm. There's a couple of levels of like different things going on there, but um, I was going to mention when you said it happened

Jann: 26:58

someone did speak up. I'm sorry, someone did speak up, but for her,

Joi: 27:02

right.

Jann: 27:03

she was wounded.

Joi: 27:05

No, yeah. No, I was just wondering, just because like I've spoken out before, To, um, team members and I've noticed other people getting spoken over and I, and I would go, I wait for them to finish whoever was speaking and I'd be like, Hey, I've noticed you are talking over, or like, you're cutting off a lot of people or so-and-so a lot, it's inappropriate. Let her finish her sentence, let her finish her, um, thought and they'll come to you. You know, like it's one of those things where it's just like, I think it's great when someone else can also be there for you.'cause something that Liva, I'm sorry. Yeah, Liva, um, mentions in her book is that it's nice to have a community of people who can also be there for you.'cause it makes it uncomfortable. So if you have someone else on your side, on your team, it's like, Hey, I don't mind making you uncomfortable. You just made this person uncomfortable how many times? And you have to stop it and it tracks immediately, you know, just like, Hey, let's pause this meeting real quick and, you know, address this issue so I can stop. It's inappropriate, you know, so,

Jann: 28:07

So normally in that situation, I wouldn't, I, I agree with you. It should be addressed right away. And I'm used to facilitating meetings. Um, as a project manager, normally the approach that I take is I wait for them to finish speaking and then before we can comment on what they said, I will go back to the person like, okay. Thank you. Now, joy, I think you were making a point as well. Do you mind finishing what you were saying? You know, and that's how I would address it, just to like keep the peace because again, like I feel like as a black woman in the workplace, I have to be careful about what I say to not come off as combative, but I'm also in a position where I have to make sure my team is heard. So that's the way that I normally address it. But I commend you if you like, completely like call out the person who's cutting people off.'cause normally that just ends in an argument in a unsuccessful meeting for me. Um, but I kind of work with adult toddlers sometimes, so,

Joi: 29:04

Well, that's the thing. I work with regular toddlers, but I, but I also work with the adults that watch'em and the adults that raise'em. Um, so it happens in different like levels, like how you had a client and you also have your coworkers. And sometimes it's good to not have to be a leader because I'd be like, listen, this is inappropriate. I'm coming as a coworker, I'm not even a leader and I'm noticing this. So not only are you, um, you know, being inappropriate, cutting people off, doing whatever, and then you as a leader, you are the one who should be doing what I'm doing right now. So both you both, you get it together, you know,

Jann: 29:41

Go to your corners.

Joi: 29:44

everybody.

Jas: 29:47

I also wanna say I commend you on that joy because one thing that I, I learned from this book that I thought was very helpful, and it's the opposite of what I've done in my entire career, is speaking up in real time. And I'm a, so I'm a group person. I'm all about making sure, do I do what's best for the team. The last thing I wanna do, especially if we're on a tight deadline, we're behind schedule for something, is derail this meeting for something inappropriate. This person said, we don't have the time or energy. So a lot of times what I do is I make a note of the inappropriate things this person said, and then I make a point to go talk to them later on. And she mentioned why this is a bad idea to do, even though like it's, I feel like it's one of the more, um, it's very, I. Respectful. I feel like it's one of the more respectful things to do, especially if you're dealing with people who are higher rank than you. Um, but what happens is you just opened yourself up to be gaslit, like to another degree. And I can't tell you how many times I've said, Hey, you said this during the meeting and I didn't appreciate you making that comment. Could you please not do that anymore? Oh, what comment? I didn't say anything like that. What do you mean? Are you this easily offended? Why are you so sensitive? And it just turns into this whole thing. And like you did this to respect their ego and to save them a little face from saying something stupid during a meeting while you're trying to get work done. And I think that's a natural approach for anyone who has like, Common decency and wasn't raised in a freaking barn. Um, but it comes back to bite us because now on top of me having this uncomfortable situation, now I'm pissed because this person doesn't even realize what I just did for them by get letting'em say face. But now they're gonna go and talk to my manager, probably try to write me up for something and like now's my word versus theirs. And we already know how that goes in most, in most scenarios. So I just thought that was a very interesting approach and it makes so much sense, but it's not what I've done in the past. So I appreciated that, that note in the book.

Joi: 32:03

But to be fair, the culture is changing. It hasn't always been a moment where it's like you can actually speak out against it. You know? It is, hasn't always been a moment go like, Hey, you're being inappropriate. They'll just, you know, it'll always just be, you know, you just have to suck it up. And that's why they're saying like, work twice as hard to get half as much. It's been okay. You know? So now that we're in 2023 and this book was written like maybe 2020, I think she said she started writing it. Things have been gradually changing from there. And it, it hasn't been the same since Covid pretty much, you know, so because people are pointing it out more and more,

Jann: 32:41

Uh, what I'll say about that particular story too, um, because I just told you a whole example of how I avoid confrontation while still getting my job done, because I'm just such a, like, non-confrontational person. It's my instinct to just avoid it, um, which is why it's whatever, which is, which is why it's so much more offensive when people call me confrontational. Like, you don't know anything about me. Like you haven't tried to observe anything about me. You saw my skin color and made an assumption because that is like the opposite of where I am. So yeah, super offensive. Um, but that was one piece of advice where I completely understood where she's coming from. Like, yes, that's exactly what happens every time, which is why I just let it go. And I don't think it's something where Jasmine, you said they don't realize what you just did for them. It's, I feel like a lot of the times they do realize it and they expect it and they weaponize that they weaponize your decency against You You know? And I will say I was so surprised and one of the reasons probably why I ended up quitting so much so soon after they brought that to me, um, to bring it to me after you said, this is something that you need to deal with. And I did that and you're still making this my issue. You know, like I had never experienced that in my job before. Because I had been there for almost a decade and I had built up my brand, you know, um, to the point where I was like, they, everyone knew my work ethic. They knew who I was. Like there had been multiple times where someone knew would come onto a project and try to make complaints like that against me, and it never reached me until end a year, you know, because my manager would immediately say, no, Janice would not do that. This is what you're misunderstanding. Like, they would figure it out before they ever brought it to me, you know?

Joi: 34:30

But

Jann: 34:30

Um, and I

Joi: 34:31

manager? Yeah. Your manager wasn't there for you that time.

Jann: 34:34

like he, he was not, no. And like I said, that job I was in previously, my brand was so well built and like my reputation was established to the point where I didn't have to deal with that, which is probably a blessing I didn't appreciate at the time, but it's also not something that I didn't like work very hard for.

Jas: 34:52

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Jann: 34:53

So, um, yeah, I think. Going to a new job was like a complete cultural shock for me. Even though I was used to code switching, I was used to doing all that stuff. Um, and it was probably one of the things that helped me build my brand and I shouldn't have had to do it, but that's where we were. Um, just that shock to my system where you told me to do this, I did this and I'm still wrong, was not something I experienced before. So, yeah. Interesting.

Jas: 35:22

very interesting. One last thing I want to point out with Joyce said that things are changing and the only thing I will say is I've been working for a decade and I worked for a number of industries. I've worked for completely different companies, big, small, and I say it depends. It really depends on the organization, how diverse they are, and how much they care about respecting their co, their coworkers, and the people who work there. Um, so I, I like to be careful about language, like yeah, race relations are getting better because when I asked, I remember having a conversation with mom, and for those of you who don't know our mom, she was born in the sixties. Um, you know, I, I have asked her before, like based on how things are right now and how they were where you grew up, you know, with segregation and, you know, Martin Luther King Jr. Was alive while she was alive. Do you think racism has gotten better? And her answer to me was, it's gotten different. She doesn't think it's changed at all. It's just as racist today as it was in, we were going through segregation and trying to figure out laws so that we have basic rights. It's just the marketing has gotten a lot better to make it seem like things are better. Um, so yeah, I, I just like to be careful of language like that.'cause it's very much in line. Like, we had a black president racism's over, you know, like not the case at all.

Joi: 36:53

no. Um, I wanted to clarify actually, um, what I meant when I, when I said things are changing, I mean, it's changing in the way that we can voice our opinions at work more. You know, we can say that we're uncomfortable with how we're being, um, treated. We can say, Hey, actually a microaggression, and I would like to teach you, this is a teachable moment. You know, like, don't say that to black women. You know, don't cut me off. You know, there's, there was a point before when you would get cut off or you would have a microaggression. You have to just wipe, you know, throw it over your shoulder, get over it, you know? But that's what I

Jann: 37:25

on where you are.

Joi: 37:26

yeah, definitely.

Jann: 37:28

because there, I feel like there is space, like you're saying, joy to call that out more often. Um, but it, it, it depends on where you are because. There are just as many spaces where if you call that out, you're gonna have a target on your back, which I know she said a lot during the book. Um, and she said that luckily some of her exper, her experiences have been the opposite, where she didn't have a target on her back. Um, and it actually made things better. But that's not always gonna be the case. And one thing I liked that she said in the book is that, um, I don't know if you guys remember the, um, story where she went into the interview and she wore her afro and they were very dismissive to her. Um, the moral of that story, which kind of shocked me was that she's not gonna care anymore. I was like, wait, how is that a solution? Like, you're still gonna go to interviews and get looked down upon because of your Afro, but she just said like, okay, well that's gonna happen. I'm not gonna let it affect my interview. And if that's the way they choose to behave, then that's not the place for me.

Joi: 38:26

Exactly. You're, you're, you're helping yourself. Like, you know what? Go ahead, go be hateful. You know, look at me, slide away and have me wait 30 extra minutes past my interview time because I wanna see how you guys act before I get in here and do my taxes

Jann: 38:41

you're right.

Joi: 38:42

Um, I do have a quick quote though from, um, this discussion from my highlighted my highlights and basically, um, it says the perpetrator is counting on us to be uncomfortable, um, feel like we are responsible and feel too awkward to call them out on their behaviors. So, like you said, yeah, like they're looking, they're hoping to, you know, that we would be good and go like, okay, that's fine. You know, let them go ahead and talk. But this is why she says she wants to address the issue immediately after it occurs, you know, and make sure that they know before they forget what happened, you know, and then details can change. Um, and they said she just wants to make it a, a creative space for teachable moment. So, That was something that really sat well with me too, you know,

Jann: 39:29

Yeah.

Joi: 39:31

and why it is important

Jann: 39:32

I, I,

Joi: 39:32

moment.

Jann: 39:35

yeah, I guess I just like to look at it as, you have to be realistic. You know, if you wanna call out every microaggression, I feel like I do at this point. Like, I, I wanna call it out when it's happening to me.'cause I have so many stories of things that's happened that I just stay silent about. And it's like, it makes you bitter after a while, you know? Um, you just have to realize that sometimes that is going to like, have some backlash and sometimes it's not the worst thing in the world. Like maybe you're just getting out of a place that you're not meant for. So,

Joi: 40:11

You know, and that's good to know too. And you know what else? Something that makes me realize too, that I'm a little bit more comfortable calling things out. I have a little bit of privilege in the black community. I'm light skinned, you know? And like oftentimes I'm not looked at as, as aggressive, and I'm like, you know, I'm bigger, I'm cuddly, I'm nice, I'm friendly. So when someone is talking down to someone else or saying like, Hey, why are they yelling or talking over them? I use my little bit of privilege that I have to kind of stick up for them when they don't, probably don't have that same privilege as I do. You know what I mean? So it's just like when you say like, Hey white women, we're looking, we're hoping that you stick up for us. You know? Or black men like you are also part of the struggle. Or have a certain struggle. Use the privilege that you have as a man, as a white woman, and stick up for us as well. You know? Because even if I could do that for other black women, Just like how I, I want like a skinny black woman to stick up for me when someone's like, Hey, big bitch. Like go, like, go where at? You know? So it's just one of those things we gotta, we can use our own privilege that we probably have to help others as well in a situation.

Jas: 41:24

Good point. Good point, joy.

Joi: 41:28

Yeah. Thanks.

Jann: 41:30

since we're kind of on this topic, um, let me go ahead and ask this question. So the book explores the idea of societal norms and pressures that can affect how we communicate, um, how can we challenge these norms and create healthier communication patterns in our lives. So I think that goes along with the conversation we were talking about with calling out microaggressions when they happen. Um, is there anything else that we can do that you guys can think of that'll help us in our situations that we're dealing with?

Joi: 42:00

Um, I'm not sure as far as like helping our situations with dealing with, but something that I kept. Coming back to when I was reading the book was like, you know, she said she wants to be hard, authentic self. She doesn't want to code switch. But there's a way that I speak to you guys, my family, and there's a way that I speak to my husband. There's a way I speak to, like, there's different ways you speak to people, including your work partners, your coworkers. But where's the line where it's actually code switching? You know, there's things I will say to you guys. I wouldn't say the, to the parents of my students, you know? Um, so I just, I think that most of the, the way that I would, I would like to go about communication. It's just like, I'm still myself. I don't feel like I have to put a mask on to talk to you. But I would say it in a more like, Hey, you know, um, I don't know. It's just, I, I don't know. I hope you guys are kind of understanding what I'm saying, but it's just like, I'm not sure where that line is, you know?

Jann: 43:01

There's a difference between being professional and code switching. Like you don't have to curse if you're trying to be professional, but you also shouldn't have to change your accent.

Joi: 43:09

Mm

Jann: 43:10

you should dress well when you're being professional, but that doesn't mean you have to straighten your hair to make it more manageable or presentable. You know? Like there, there's definitely a line and I feel like as black women we're pushed past that line a lot. Like if we wear our natural hair, there's people commenting on it. There's people making passive aggressive comments on it. Um, yeah. And there's a thousand examples of just my hair and the workplace that I can bring up. Um, one in particular that stands out to me is, Um, when our niece was born, everyone in the office was asking me about her because I couldn't stop talking about her. She was about three months when this happened, and, um, someone in my office just asked, how's it going? And at the time I just said, oh, you know, it's great. She has a little bit of stranger danger right now. Um, and she doesn't recognize me every time I come over, so I don't get to hold her as often as I like, or something like that. And their comment to me was, well, maybe it's because you change your hair so often she doesn't know who you are.

Jas: 44:16

Oh my goodness.

Joi: 44:17

Girl.

Jann: 44:18

I'm like, or it could be that she's three months old. Like, why is that what you thought to tell me? Like you had that one locked and loaded. You couldn't wait to say something about it.

Jas: 44:31

I, I, I think, yeah, that's something where if you don't experience it on a regular basis, I, I feel like a white person listening to this was like, I don't understand what's the problem? The problem is, the problem is, this is not the only thing you've heard about your hair at work. And I, I'll go as far, I have a hair story too. My hair story is I would straighten my hair all throughout, you know, I had a relaxer all, you know, the age you could have a relaxer all through high school and in college. When I was living in New York, I had an opportunity to say, you know what, screw this. I don't, I can't afford to get my hair done. I don't have the resources to go out and straighten it all the time, nor the time because I'm working. I have an internship, I have school, so I'm gonna wear my hair curly. It was the first time in my life where I'm like, I'm just gonna let it hang out. And I was told by my job at the time that my hair was inappropriate. And that I was not allowed to wear it curly anymore. I had to straighten my hair for my job. And mind you, at the same time, there were three other white girls who had curly natural hair who were allowed to wear their hair naturally curly and to back up their, their statements, they said the same thing to the white girls after they said it to me too. Like, oh, you guys had to straighten your hair now too. Um,

Jann: 46:02

That is insane.

Joi: 46:04

And the wise words of charade for my alleged housewives, who's gonna pay me boo? That should cost money and time. You wanna pay me to go to a blowout bar and get a Brazilian blowout like, girl, it's nuts though. It's like, it almost makes me emotional when they're like, your natural state is not good enough. You know, I,

Jas: 46:25

why wouldn't it? Why wouldn't it?

Jann: 46:28

I feel like that's closer to like overt racism than like microaggression, to be honest with you. like a microaggression. like another story that I have happened to be the same woman in this office, by the way. It's, I had just been wearing twist outs, like not even like Afro just curly down for months. Like that's a hairstyle that I just got comfortable with. And the other black women in the office went and got braids, like just single braids. And she made it a point after going and telling her how much she likes her hair to go directly. I saw her work from her cubicle over the mind to tell me, I guess you're not the one with the most interesting hair in the office anymore.

Joi: 47:14

What,

Jann: 47:17

Like these are microaggressions. Exactly

Joi: 47:21

There's no way. I think it's, it's important also to note that it is a cultural thing as well. Um, for me personally, I never had an issue once again, like, I can't know if you could tell or not, but my hair, it's ringless. So like a, like a, um, A three C or so, right? Or a four A Um, not a lot of people mentioned my texture of my hair'cause they, they consider acceptable. But when I cut my hair, um, because I had a lot of split ins, my hair was a lot longer, even in its curly state, it was past my shoulders. When I told my hairdresser, I like, Hey, chop the shit off. It's old, it's raggedy. I want it to be cut off. She was like, but it's so long and pretty. You don't see it that often on black girls. And I was like, girl, you're a black woman first. You know, stand up, stand up girl. Chop this shit off it's hair. It'll grow back. You got this long already, it'll come back. You know? Um, I think one of the things too is like internalized racism is a big issue as well. So we work with, um, within ourselves, work with our sisters, and then like we can push out more when we have more soldiers on our side to say, Hey, that's not all right. We have more people to fight for us. In the other parts of the community,

Jas: 48:39

Agreed. I wanna get back to the original question Janice asked too in regard to,'cause we got, you talk about hair and like that's a tangent all on its own right.

Jann: 48:48

Yeah.

Jas: 48:48

Um, the question was, what other tactics can we use when it comes to communication outside of speaking up when we see a microaggression and, um, one thing that I thought of is receipts. Unfortunately, the, the idea is that you have to work harder, like, so much harder than your white counterparts. But I can't tell you how many stories I have where I had receipts and someone was trying to come at me because they were like, oh, I can just treat her any way I want and, and try to make me out to be a certain person that I'm not. I'll give you an example. So I just wanna preface this with, like I said, I worked for a decade. I've worked at so many different companies at every single company I've worked at, with the exception of my current position. I have dealt with some type of racism. Some people flat out just coming for me just because I'm a black woman and people questioning whether or not I can do my job. And it, it is very much tied to me being a black woman. So all that to say is I got stories for days, like a lot of this stuff, but about the receipts. I had one situation where I had a woman who, she's a white woman, she's had issues with multiple people with not doing what she says she's going to do, and my boss instructed me to reach out to her and ask her to turn in some documents. I sent her an email and I said, Hey, here are the documents that you're missing. I made it nice and helpful. I gave her links so she has more details of all the things that she needs to turn in, and I sent it over to her and I copied my boss on it because, um, that's the other part of this. You go, boss has to have your back 100%. And they have to know that these are some of the things that are gonna happen because I'm a black woman. Sorry. She replied to that email. Actually, she didn't reply to the email. She forwarded my email, not to my boss, but to my boss's boss and said, I don't like Jasmine's tone. I think she was very combative in this email. She's attacking me. I don't like how she said this in this, in this email. And, um, my, she didn't even go to my boss. So like my boss's boss came to her and said, What is this? Why is she sending me this email? There's nothing in this email that I think is combative or aggressive or any of these things that Jasmine is saying. And you know, it sounds like she's just asking her for this information. Can you gimme some background? Of course, my boss was like, yeah, Jasmine combative, like you even know this girl. Like she would never do anything like this. And you know, Jasmine has done this, she's done this, she's done this. And it sucks because like it slows down my job. It slows down my boss's job that we have to, we have to sit back here and do a whole party for why Jasmine is awesome because someone doesn't like the tone

Joi: 51:37

Mm-hmm.

Jas: 51:38

of the email that I sent that was just direct and saying, Hey, can you get this done today? And she didn't like that it was coming from me. So having someone that has your back have a receipt saying like, here's my work that I've done in the past, when someone. When someone comes for you and you know, just doing your job and not getting caught up because I, I guarantee you, there is someone there who is waiting for you to slip up. And once you slip up, they're gonna take that and run with it and say, this is why she doesn't need to be in her job anymore.

Jann: 52:10

so. Completely agree with everything you just said. And that's called c y a. That's like 30% of my job as a project manager is cover your ass. Um, meeting notes, extra emails, making sure that everyone who needs to be copied and understands or copied on the email. Um, yes, that is a huge part of being a black woman in the office as well. Even if you're not a project manager, 30% of your job as a black woman is c y a.

Jas: 52:39

All right.

Joi: 52:39

My thing is too, when you said receipts, jazz, uh, something I saw on TikTok actually was like, you know, when you have a verbal altercation or a verbal conversation, make sure you email them and go like, Hey, per our conversation, I just wanted to make sure that we clarify these points. Blank, blank, blank. This was the issue. This is what we resolved, this is what we talked about. And have them reply so that you have like a physical copy of what they said to you in the conversation, just in case it gets up in, in hr. So it won't be he said, she said it is right here documented even with verbal communication. So you're right, c y a baby.

Jann: 53:17

And along with c y a and receipts. Getting back to that question, um, again, um, something that we can do, I feel like it's a mind change or a mindset change, you know, the same way that she said, I'm not going to let people looking down on me because I have a Afro affect my actual interviewing skills. Um, one thing that she said too was instead of viewing a job as a relationship, it's gonna be a friends with benefits. You know, like as soon as this no longer serves me, I'm going to move on. You know, I'm not gonna stay here because I owe them this or I owe them that. Like, no, this is no longer benefiting me. This is not the place for me. I'm gonna keep going. Um, and then asking, rather than asking, do I belong here? Do I fit in, ask. Does this place deserve me? Which I thought was amazing.

Jas: 54:07

that was one of my favorite parts.

Jann: 54:09

Those were two things that stuck out to me, like as far as like what we can do to change how we're viewed in the workplace. Um, sometimes it's not anything you can change, you just have to change your own mindset. So,

Joi: 54:19

I love everything that you said and I know I was like kind of like chuckling over here. I was thinking like friends with benefits, like yeah, you hit and quit that job, girl.

Jann: 54:32

yeah. Yeah. So quick question. Were there any experiences or topics, um, that identified that you identified with more than others? And how did you handle those similar situations? Now, I know we kind of been talking about that the whole time, but I just wanted to open the floor if there's anything, any particular part of the book. Yes, Jasmine.

Jas: 54:57

There's one part of it that I feel like this was my biggest takeaway from the book, and

Jann: 55:05

I wonder if it's gonna be the same as mine. Go ahead. I'll let you know.

Jas: 55:08

I'm gonna preface it by talking about another book really quick, because it was this other book for why this topic became such a big deal with women in the workplace. So there's a book I read a long time ago, lean In. By, um, Sheryl Sandberg, and it was a big hit and it was all about women in the workplace. And one of the big takeaways everyone talked about in that book was imposter syndrome. And they talked about how

Jann: 55:34

it. That was the one,

Jas: 55:37

she made that term popular. She did. And she said like, you are in there, in that workplace, like you deserve to be there. You need to get outta your own head when it comes to imposter syndrome and do your thing. But after that book came out, which I still think it was a great book, but it came from a very narrow place. She's a white woman who's very successful and she didn't look at a lot of these concepts from a full lens. What I loved about what Elizabeth Liva said is like, is it imposter syndrome or is it that you're being treated like an imposter? I can't remember exactly the term that she used.

Jann: 56:15

that's exactly the term she used. She said imposter syndrome is oftentimes imposter treatment, which was like a light bulb going off for me, so I just wanted to like re reaffirm. That's exactly the term, but go ahead.

Jas: 56:29

Yes. So that was the part that stood out to me the most because I, she talked about her story, like how she was this boisterous person in high school, loud, made jokes like she was very confident in herself and I resonated with that'cause that's who I was in high school. I was very loud and boisterous and I was like cocky and confident in talking about, oh yeah, I'll do this test in my sleep. Because like, I had it, you know, I knew I was going to college, I knew I was gonna do well in college and I did. But there was something that happened. In college where I made myself smaller. And in that time, from that time for me going to college, to me working in the workspace where now I'm the type of person that people say, don't let people railroad you in meetings. That doesn't even make any sense. How do you go from being this person who's not only like confident and smart and they know what they're doing?'cause someone who can barely speak in a meeting because everyone keeps talking over them, it doesn't happen that that's not a natural transition for a person to be. So I really resonated with her when she said that. And she said, are, are, do you have imposter syndrome or are people treating you like you're an outsider? Like you don't belong there? And that's really what it is because I can go in full of confidence. I, okay, I'll tell one more story. Like I said, I have one more story I'll tell you about this. It was a different job I worked at and I had a woman, a couple of women actually, who were complaining about me to my boss and to my boss's boss. I don't like that Jasmine did this. I don't like how Jasmine did that. And anytime I might have to work with them and like get information from them or try to work so we can like figure out how to solve this problem that we're supposed to work on, they would either ignore my emails or completely just, just send like passive aggressive things in an email, just not making any progress or ask me questions like, why do you need this anyway? And.

Jann: 58:33

And then turn around and call you combative. It's insane to me. I have so many experiences like that, but I'm sorry, continue.

Jas: 58:41

So she was just giving me a hard time and my boss said, I'm just gonna talk to her. I'm gonna talk to her and figure out what's the problem. Why does she have a problem with you? And my boss, she's a white woman, so I felt like she, this other white woman, thought she could talk to her and be honest with her about what her problem was with me. And I'm curious'cause I'm all about feedback. Like, I need to be a better person. Like, you know, tell me what I need to do so I can prove my job. She tells my boss, I just, I don't like how confident Jasmine is in meetings. I just, I feel like I don't know enough when she's asking so many questions and when she's so engaged in the meetings and like, it just don't make me feel good to God. This woman said this. Yeah, she says she doesn't like how confident I am in meetings and it makes her feel not confident and like she doesn't know what to say in meetings. That's her problem with me,

Joi: 59:42

Instead of improving

Jann: 59:43

know what

Jas: 59:46

So, yeah.

Jann: 59:47

had, I had a story in the chamber about something so similar to that about Apostate syndrome, about how like senior PMs, when I was just starting out, didn't like to listen to my advice, um, when it came to financial spreadsheets or anything that I was clearly better at than them. Um, and it's because they didn't like how confident I was. But I have never experienced someone just outright saying, I don't like how confident she, like they really are saying the quiet parts out loud now, aren't they?

Joi: 1:00:17

Well, not only that, but there's also a part of the book where it's like, you know, between men and women, being confident is a, is a good thing for men in leadership position. But as a woman, you look at as arrogant, you know, or looking down on other people because you think you know everything. So that could also be part of just plaino sexism as well.

Jann: 1:00:37

Yeah, it definitely is. Um, it's you, she, Jasmine did say that it was a white woman, so I'm sure that was more so race-based. But that is something that she brought up in the book is how important it is to have a sponsor rather than a mentor and how her sponsor was a white man. Because when it came to discussions about performance, he was the person to speak up and say, um, when they were bashing her about how confrontational or how she's too direct or so and so he'll say no. Those are actually good qualities. They had nothing to say about that because like you said, joy, like when it comes to a man, being direct is something that's, a sign of leadership, whereas if it's a black woman, then she's confrontational. So yeah, definitely having a sponsor. I love that idea because I have a lot of mentors, mostly because I needed someone to back me up when someone complained about something ridiculous, which I didn't even internalize as a racist thing. I just thought it was me being a younger woman in a financial field, but seeing other young women come into the field that were not black, it became clear to me very quickly that it was a race thing. Um, but I always had a lot of mentors just to back me up and I didn't even consider having a sponsor, but I had those unknowingly, like I never sought out a sponsor, but luckily I had one or two that helped me along.

Joi: 1:01:55

So what exactly would be the difference between a sponsor and a mentor? Like, like what exactly is the difference? Because I'm not picking it up, you know?

Jann: 1:02:04

Do you wanna take it, Jess, or you want me to?

Jas: 1:02:07

I can, I can talk through it. I, I don't know exactly, I can't remember what she called a sponsor versus a mentor, but I. To me, they're one and the same. So I know like a sponsor ha holds a place of, of, um, power. So like they have, they can't, you can't have a sponsor and they on the same level as you because like, they're not gonna get anywhere. If a VP is attacking you, they can't do anything to like, protect you from that vp. Whereas a mentor, like they can be someone your same age or in your same job category or whatever. For me, like, um, my sponsors have always been my mentors, which have always been my bosses. And this is something that I tell my friends, like, I don't go into a job role unless my boss is willing to be a mentor for me because I, I think that's a good way to make sure that one, I can come to the job 100% as myself, like, I'm gonna come, sometimes I just wanna shoot the shit and talk to you and see how things are going. And other times I'm like, listen, I'm at a loss for words. I don't know why this person is doing this. Like, could you gimme some guidance? And then some days it's just like, hey, Um, I, this person is attacking me. Can you help? And I feel like that's technically, I feel like that's what your boss should do. Um, but I like to just make sure that I bring that up upfront because I, I was surprised to learn that people don't have those summer relationships with their bosses where they actually have their back and they're, they have, they're taking you under their wing. Like, Hey, I wanna see you grow. I wanna see you develop in your career. Um, so that, that's what I think, Jan, you can clarify for any of those things.

Jann: 1:03:45

Yeah, the way I understood it, um,'cause that's how I've gone through jobs as well. Jazz, like sponsors and mentors were the same to me. And I feel like your sponsor can be a mentor. The difference with that is like a mentor while still above you. Like I had a mentor who was maybe two levels above me, which is where she suggested two, two levels and he showed me a lot about like, he was sitting on my meetings, gimme pointers or where I can improve, where I can be more assertive, um, where I can help the team along a little bit. That's a mentor. But we had the same boss ultimately, you know, like there was a team of people under this person. Um, and you can be at different levels, but I mean as far as pay or role title, but we're all answering to him. So a sponsor should be somebody who can, um, Talk. Not necessarily just give a good review, but be in those conversations when they're talking about, um, raises or promotions and actually have your back, because not all your mentors are gonna be at that level. So you also need a sponsor, which I had and a VP without me knowing until it got back to me that he advocated for me. You know?

Joi: 1:04:52

what's some more likely with more power than like? Like more, more room to be able to do something about

Jann: 1:04:59

think she talked in the book. Yeah, in the book she talked too about, um, you can have all your mentors be black women because you need to know how to make it to where they made it as a black woman specifically, but your sponsor, you might want to be a different sex or a different race because they have more cred, or not credibility, but kind of, you know, like their word is like a little bit more heavily weighted than a black woman, unfortunately. So it was just all critiqued. Yeah, all strategy about how you can cheat the system of oppression, pretty much. So, yeah, that was the difference

Joi: 1:05:35

Interesting. Okay. Um, thank you for not dumbing it down, but explaining it to me more.

Jas: 1:05:42

Yeah. Same for me

Joi: 1:05:43

I appreciate that. Um, actually bringing it back to the imposter syndrome, um, I have a quote that I liked. Um, in this chapter it says, um, in reality the root of the fraud feeling is a result of systematic bias and exclusion. And rather than naming that society a k a, the academy found another way to cover it up and name the experiences of marginalized communities that places blame on the person rather than the system. So when you say you have imposter syndrome, and she said that her friends are like, you don't have that. Stop saying that it's not something, it's something you're internalizing when it's not your fault. You know, like you said, you were treated as an imposter, that you didn't belong there. Not that you didn't work your ass off to be there. So it's the same thing where it's like when in schools where it's like, oh, you got in because of, um, What is it called? Uh,

Jann: 1:06:34

action.

Joi: 1:06:35

exactly. Yeah. And I was gonna actually mention, like, when you said that you were very boisterous and happy and outgoing in high school, was the race differences different from your college life as well? Like how she was Elizabeth in her school because she said she was surrounded by a black community that, so that helped her and, and supported her, and then she went to a white college and it was nothing, you know?

Jas: 1:06:59

Yeah, that that pretty much happened with me. Well, we actually went to a school that was majority black for. More than half of our, our, um, you know, elementary school, middle school, and it was my last year of middle school. We moved to, I'm not gonna say an all white school, but it was definitely way more white people, majority white school, but they were still a, a nice big community of black people and then other people of color. So it didn't affect me. The same way that it did in college where the percentage of black people was so much smaller compared to the percentages like it was in high school. And for a lot of my classes, I was taking a lot of AP classes, I was taking a lot of art classes. And unfortunately I didn't see a lot of people in those same classes with me who looked like me. Um, so especially dorm living was probably the hardest part because some of the, for a lot of the people I went to college with, they had never, they had never talked to black people. They didn't have any black friends and they were just saying whatever was on their mind to me. And it was just like, I could not escape it. I was living in it. I, there was no safe space for me to just like be myself. And they're like, Hey, I just experienced five different racist things today and these people are none the wiser. Like they're saying racist shit while laughing. Um,

Jann: 1:08:29

it's like, sometimes it's a microaggression, but there was one time, and I'm sorry, I'm not gonna like keep doing personal stories. This guy that was like the class clown, everyone loved him. You know, like had to be the center of attention. But everyone, no one cared because he was lovable. Um, literally picked up a National Geographic with the African tribe on it. Brought it to me in the front of class and said, Hey look, your cousins are on the cover.

Jas: 1:08:55

oh my God.

Joi: 1:08:56

did we fight or like, did you get suspended?

Jann: 1:09:00

Like, how do you,

Jas: 1:09:01

And that's what I will say too, just jumping back into my story about college. It's not just the students, it was also the professors. I can't tell you how many classes I was in where they bring up race. I'm like, Jasmine, is that true? What am I, the race person now? Like, I'm just black. I just happen to be here. And now you just, you just outed me and said, Hey, you're different than everybody else. Won't you tell us for our own entertainment and your uncomfort, your discomfort. We don't care about your comfort. So all that to say is college was really hard, very, very hard for me at least starting off before I, I found my way to the black community and it, I had to work really hard to find it. You had to be in the black student Union. You had to like figure out the parties that were happening. Um, that were specifically for like sororities or fraternities or things that were happening like that. And even with that, there was a huge discrepancy between what kind of support the black community received for the same type of events that the white people were receiving. And it is just like, yeah. All that to say is you get real, uh, you, you learn quickly to just shrink, shrink yourself to avoid more ridicule, to avoid any other things that could potentially be damaging. And it's, it's all just to protect yourself. It's not something where I'm trying to like, look good in front of people. I just don't wanna hurt anymore.

Joi: 1:10:35

Do you think that, so she mentioned in the book that the teachers in her high school were different. They always raised their students up, supported them, told them that they could do well. And when she went to college, it wasn't the same. Not only'cause it was white, but because it was a whole bunch of more students, you know? And I'm wondering what is better for us as a community, should we go out into these white spaces to diversify them, even though emotionally, physically, like it could be traumatic, you know, trying to, um, navigate these spaces. Or would it be better to stick to the HBCUs, stick to places where it's like more us there, you know, like where you guys sit with

Jann: 1:11:11

feel like it, it's definitely gonna be a. Personal decision, you know, because you could just wanna go into robotics and wanna go to the best school for robotics. That's not necessarily gonna be H B E C U, but it could be, you know, like sometimes you wanna make decisions that aren't based on race. Uh, I will say that that is one of my biggest, like, um, is what is a fomo, but in the past it's not Fear of missing out, but feeling like I did miss out. Like I would definitely go to the H B C U if I could. Yeah. It is not like I regret it necessarily. I kind of want both experiences.

Joi: 1:11:48

Yeah.

Jann: 1:11:49

but yeah, I would definitely go, if I could go back, I would go to A H B C U, but I know that's not gonna be the solution for everyone, you know?

Joi: 1:11:56

Right, because eventually you do have to enter some spaces that's not as diversified, but, um, I feel like we have a way of finding each other anyway, even in those spaces to

Jas: 1:12:06

I, I,

Joi: 1:12:07

mm-hmm.

Jas: 1:12:07

yeah, I I hear you Joy. I honestly, my answer would probably be, I would just get out of the United States sooner and see the rest of the fricking world. I feel like we base so much stuff on race in the States and like literally the entire world don't do that. Like, don't it, it not to the degree that, not to the degree that the United States does it. Um, like where we have to be like, yeah. Anyway, I know there's racism in other places. But like having this traumatic of an experience going because of your skin color. Like, yeah, I'm sure you could still have traumatic experiences because of being a woman, because you're a foreigner, because you have a funny accent, because you dress funny. Like there's so many things that, you know, can make you stand out and be different. But I think what's more important is knowing that like, you can be in a place where it's okay to be who you are at the end of the day. I don't, sometimes that can be an H B C U sometimes that could be an international college. That could be at a, in a white school if you know like what your community is and you have the knowledge. I, I didn't, I did not have, I was not prepared to go into a white college and deal with people who have never had black friends. I didn't even know that was possible. I had, most of my friends are black, but I still have people of different races who are my, how could you go through life? And not have any people of color who are your friends. Like that says a lot

Jann: 1:13:37

I had, if I had a dollar for every person when I got to college, that told me I was the first black person they met. I swear it happened way too often. So, yeah.

Joi: 1:13:52

Can I say though, that you both went to college in Northern Ohio? So it is like, not to be expected, but it's like, huh, you know, don't really see like, um, Too many people out there, you know? Um,

Jas: 1:14:06

grew up in northern Ohio where there was a huge black community. Like it's just so

Jann: 1:14:12

Black day camps, everything.

Jas: 1:14:14

Exactly. We were so black. Our whole upbringing was so black and like it went from, we used to seeing the black national anthem every day. You know, we went.

Jann: 1:14:26

so many people, so many people don't even know there is a black national anthem. Was it somebody, and I can't remember who it was, told me that someone thought, I believe I could fly by r Kelly was a blind.

Joi: 1:14:40

It,

Jas: 1:14:45

I mean, in the nineties.

Jann: 1:14:49

In the nineties, it kind of was.

Joi: 1:14:53

it was,

Jann: 1:14:57

Yeah.

Joi: 1:14:57

I was just wondering. Yeah, I was just wondering just because like, Yeah, I was,

Jann: 1:15:09

go ahead, joy, please.

Joi: 1:15:11

I was just wondering because when she said that she would, um, even reach out to her teachers and they would meet her with nothing in college, it was just kind of shocking. And I was wondering if that happened to y'all too. Like if you even reached out and tried to get closer to your teachers. They're like, it don't matter. You're not supposed to be here. You're gonna fail out anyway, so why waste my time?

Jann: 1:15:32

I've had that experience with some. Some of my professors, the computer science class in particular, um, I failed the first time around because I had never experienced something like that before. And then the second time around, of course I aced it. Um, but the professor, like, I think it, I assumed it was for everyone. Like you go to office hours and he wouldn't be there. You would email him and he wouldn't respond. Like if you asked him a question that he thought was beneath him, he had an attitude the whole time answering it. So I ended up avoiding him and ended up failing the class. Um, so there were some like that, but I also had a lot of, of teachers who I was in, um, a art program which was majority, like 99.9%. Non-black students, like it was me and two other black students there, you know? Um, and whenever I turned in an assignment, it was more so the professor during critique saying, this is good, but it doesn't really talk about your experience, you know, the black experience. I'm like, this was an assignment on light exposure. How black can I make it like next time I'll take a of fried chicken. Will that be better for you?

Joi: 1:16:45

Don't forget the watermelon for a side baby. I,

Jas: 1:16:51

your, your question, joy, as far as like the teachers, I, I can speak from guidance counselors, so I remember in middle school, middle school before we moved and middle school, um, no. Yeah. Middle school before we moved, we had a guidance counselor who saw us out. She found. Every black person who was getting ready to go into high school, this was in middle school, and say, Hey, you, I haven't talked to you yet. Come to my office at this time so we can talk about your colleges. that. that was a completely different experience. And then in college, like no guidance counselors taught me how I had to figure out who my guidance counselor was. And then when I went to them, she was like, and what's funny is they're both white women. I'm just gonna throw that out there. When I went to the one in college, I'm like, okay, I just graduated. I went to school in New York. Like I did all these extracurriculars. Like I'm mean, I was like knocking it out of the park. I was expecting her to like do a little research on me. I had just threw this massive fashion show that everyone was talking about at the college. And when I got to her, she was like, okay, who are you? All right, so what do you wanna do? All right, so you can work for these companies at Columbus, I guess. And I'm like, okay, like how do I go about finding a job? Well, here's a link. Go to Indeed here, go to LinkedIn. It was 10 minutes. Like she showed no interest in me. Like she, she had never met with me before. She didn't try to schedule something else. It was completely useless. Very useless. Honestly, it like it, I thought this whole department is useless. There's no point in me ever like coming here. Why do we even have this? Like, is this what they're, you're telling me to go to Indeed and LinkedIn to look for a job? Like, are you serious? So yeah, just a very

Jann: 1:18:50

paid for.

Jas: 1:18:51

Yeah, very different. But then like I said, I had a counselor in middle school. I'm not even about to go to college. She is seeking out everybody who's about to go to high school and be like, listen, here are the different colleges that have like different programs that will be good for what you're interested in. Here are the different scholarships for, um, being black and having a 3.5 g p because you have good grades. It, yeah, that, I feel like that's how it should be.

Jann: 1:19:16

I feel like the conversation of having the difference in students' lives when you have counselors and teachers that are engaged and want to be there, rather than people who are like punching in and collecting a paycheck is an hours long conversation. Like I can, I can talk about that forever. Joy. I am sure you can talk about that forever because that's your field. Um, I. But yes, absolutely. It makes a huge difference.

Joi: 1:19:44

it makes a huge difference. That's something that I strive for to be that person. Like, Hey, you get in here, let's talk. You know? But, um, my thing, even working with little ones, um, you know, you can tell the people who are there for a check, you know, clock in, clock out, and the ones that care, the ones that decorate the rooms, the ones that, you know, use a little bit of their own money to help educate the kids further than what the government provides. You know? Um, and that's something you should strive for.'cause I feel like even in her books, she was like, you know, The difference was night and day and what's the point of going to an education field when you don't wanna educate or, or lift up the next generation? Why are you closing doors behind you that you walk through ins instead of having it, holding it open for the kids coming up, you know? Um, so that's something that's really important to me personally, especially with black kids coming up that um, you know, they come from backgrounds. I remember she said that she used to sneak out for lunch and she would watch these people even though they were in the ghetto and the hood, you know, they had nice cars and stacks of money and like, that could never be me. Like, I don't even know how to get from point A to point B. And I feel like that's where teachers come in and educate, you know, like, Hey, you can do this. You know, I came up from it. I mean, I'm a teacher in America, you know, I don't have stacks, but I'm doing pretty okay and I want you to do better. You know, this is what I know, this is what I've learned. Go for, go past me. I want you to do better than what I did. You know? And I think that's very important to someone's being brought up, especially in a place where it's harder, um, you know, it's more dangerous or they don't see the, um, necessary things you have to do to get to be a lawyer or whatever you want to do. Like the sky's the limit. And I remember when she said too that, um, a lot of kids were told, you're never go to college. You're not good enough to graduate high school. You know? And that it made me think back to when we were growing up and I was actually shocked. I was even in high school and I was like, Hey, I never heard that. You know, you don't go to college. I've always been told we go to college after high school. And when I learned that people weren't gonna college after high school that I graduated with, I was like, I didn't know it was an option not to go. I remember coming home telling mom, like, I didn't know there wasn't an option to not go to school. And she's like, yeah, it's not, where are you going? You know? So it was just the way that it was constantly ingrained to us, um, that we're gonna go to college, like, you know, secondary school after high school. So, um, I think it's interesting just the ways that you kind of, you know, the upbringing really helps.

Jas: 1:22:14

Yeah, for sure.

Jann: 1:22:15

the upbringing and the teachers. All right guys. So the last point I wanted to make was, uh, code switching, um, leads to burnout. So that's one of the points in the book I thought, like was the biggest takeaway. I feel like, the fact that you have to consider that doing all these, like the code switching definitely makes you feel exhausted, but it actually is leaning to burnout and that, um, puts a physical strain on you as well as mental. I know she talked a lot about how she lost her mom at 62, due to a stroke, which is not old, you know, like, and the biggest cause of strokes is stress. So that's definitely something that we all need to look out for. Like it's more than just your professional success at risk. it's your actual health and I feel like you need to take that pretty seriously.

Joi: 1:23:01

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 1:23:02

Um, so I definitely wanted to call that out. And then just one quick question at the end. if there was one question that you could ask Elizabeth Liba, um, about her book or just about anything, what would it be?

Joi: 1:23:14

Uh, my thing that I kept constantly asking was like, why LinkedIn? Every time I, I'm not really, um, familiar with the website. Uh, I know I have a page somewhere, probably two. I forgot that I had one, but I never logged in or anything like that. I'm like, you know, I'm old enough to have Facebook, but also young enough to have TikTok, you know, so it's just like LinkedIn. I'm just like, there's Facebook, there's Twitter, there's Instagram. What? It's with LinkedIn in 2020, you know? So, um

Jann: 1:23:44

feel like LinkedIn is like definitely a site that people use when they're working in corporate America. You know, like it's something where you can talk about things that are relevant while also networking. Um, and that's my short answer, Ja, if you have another like thought processes to why LinkedIn?

Jas: 1:24:03

I, I, I agree with that. I think LinkedIn is, you know, you can try to generate, like put it by a generation, but it's not really that. It's like if you work in a corporate environment, you're on LinkedIn. It doesn't matter what age you are. And what I do, like the fact that she's on LinkedIn, I follow her on LinkedIn and she has a ton of fricking followers, what she talked about in the book, but she talks about things on LinkedIn that make so many white people uncomfortable. And my favorite thing is seeing what she does in the comments. And then my favorite thing that she does is people will be like, there'd be a one white person, like, I don't understand Kiwi. Explain this to me. And she'll get in there and go, I don't have to explain anything to you. Look it up. It's Google. And I, I love that. That's her whole. And then she has a bunch of other people who are doing the same thing. Um, so I love, she lives it, like she has this book and she talks about all these things, but she is living her truth and I love that about her. And she's doing it on LinkedIn.'cause that's the last place I would talk about race because I'm terrified of soul. Fire me on my, at my job. Yeah, go ahead.

Jann: 1:25:09

that's why, yeah, that was what I thought you were gonna get at Joy is why LinkedIn? Because it's so risky. Um, because it's supposed to be a professional space and white people don't consider talking about race. Um, relevant. Like at all to professionalism, unless they're telling you what you can't do. You know? So I thought that's why you said why LinkedIn? Because it was such a risk to her career. And she did have that one story where she said a white man reached out to her after she posted something about how you should not code switch at work and said, it's dangerous to tell people this because at work you need to have a more professional, um, speech and you can't, um, pretend like you're at a ball game and talking shit to

Joi: 1:25:52

cussing and stuff. Yeah.

Jann: 1:25:54

And her only question was why would you assume code switching? Like talking like how I normally talk is talking trash.

Joi: 1:26:01

Yeah.

Jann: 1:26:02

And the only thing he could say is, I don't know why I said that. Like exactly. It's very internalized. And that's why I think she picked LinkedIn because those conversations need to be, had.

Joi: 1:26:11

Okay. Because when I was reading it, I was like, it's almost like posting, um, things like that on Nextdoor. Like I just like so unfamiliar with the space, so I like what? Like LinkedIn and I was like, can't you reach more people on Twitter or Facebook or something like that? But I guess it makes sense. Um, and if that's the case, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jas: 1:26:33

My question I have for Elizabeth is, Um, not, well, I guess it kind of ties back to why I gave it a four instead of a five. And I feel like something that's missing is, she talks a lot about how you can control you, right? Like what you can do in the workplace. But I don't think she goes into a lot about like, what you can do to help your work environment. Like how can you help, like, make your space a better space outside of like

Jann: 1:27:01

Hmm.

Jas: 1:27:01

leaving, going to another place. So I would've loved if there was like more resources, like if I, if she had maybe a place where I can go, just download some sheets. Like, here you go. Next time someone says something racist here. Like, just take that burden off of me from having to do that work. And maybe just like provide more guidance, like on how to further educate people around me at my workplace.

Jann: 1:27:26

Yeah, the only thing I saw mentioned is when she completely said like, it's not your job to heal a space. Girl leave.

Jas: 1:27:35

Exactly.

Jann: 1:27:36

That's all I heard her say about that. But to your point, some people don't want to leave. They want to make the situation better, which I feel is not necessarily our responsibility. But if that's what you wanna do, it would be nice if there are more resources, um, available to help out with that.

Joi: 1:27:51

Yeah. I think too that comes across, like, that comes again with the health issue. Like if you want to help, make sure you keep your health number one too.'cause that's been the high blood pressure and the stress, you know, all that just kind of adds up, you know, later down the line. Um, yeah.

Jas: 1:28:10

Hey there. But one thing I will say, there is a bit of privilege in saying just leave, right? Everybody

Jann: 1:28:17

Not everyone's in that position.

Jas: 1:28:19

Yeah, sometimes you don't have a choice. I've seen some people go through, they are going through emotional abuse on a regular basis, direct racism, and they can't leave their job because they're tied up in some way, one way or form. Um, so yeah, I don't think that's always an option for everyone. So for those who it is not an option, at least not right now, give them the resources or provide some kind of resources and make it so that it's more bearable or at the very least, like what to look for when you're job hunting, to know that they're not going to be racist. Because I've seen people too, they do the switch, right? You go into a pos a position, everyone loves you. They can't stop talking about you. And then once something happens, like you are the scapegoat, you are the person that everyone has a problem with, and now like they're firing you for the sake of saving someone else's ass. So yeah, something like that I think would be helpful because it's, it's, it's not exactly the easiest thing to pinpoint. There's some things you can pick up on, but like, Yeah, it's not always a sure thing that something's wrong with the environment.

Joi: 1:29:21

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 1:29:23

What I would like as a resource is for someone to like really simplify hr because Jass, I know you've and I have had this conversation where there's some things that so overt that you should report it to hr, but you're still, or at least I'm still sort of afraid of retaliation because HR is supposed to protect you from that. But what are the signs that HR is actually gonna protect you from that, rather than taking the company side and like booting

Joi: 1:29:47

they're there for, right?

Jann: 1:29:50

like, yeah, I would love like a more comprehensive, like, this is what you should expect. This is where you should, you use caution.

Joi: 1:29:58

Yeah. Yeah. I think, when you said, when she said, girl, just leave, but in parentheses she should have like, and have a job lined up first. Like, you know, have something in your back pocket if you can, you know,

Jann: 1:30:16

So my question to the author would be, what was the fallout of some of these things? You know, I feel like the story in particular that was the most uncomfortable for me, where she said, speak out in the moment. I just wanna know, like, did did it get worse before it gets better? did it immediately get better? I know that story in particular, the woman said, I'm just stressed out, and she sent her an email. But what was her relationship like with her from then on out? Was she more passive aggressive, but more slick about it? Or did she actually change her behavior? um, yeah, I would, I would like to know the fallout and what she dealt with. Like, what can you expect if you do these things, you know?

Joi: 1:30:55

I have another question too. I wanna know if she does yoga or something. Like how do you get through these kind of things? Like, oh, I wasn't, I was just in a bad mood, like, yeah girl, so I'm, I'm at work. Like, I don't take it out on you, you know? How does she kind of like, Get in the mindset of like, this is very, um, offensive and I'm gonna take it professionally. But you know, because I have a,

Jann: 1:31:26

Yeah. Okay. Well that was the last question. Um, any final thoughts that you're like dying to get out before we wrap up?

Joi: 1:31:35

um, I do, I kind of wanna explain why I gave her a four and a half instead of five. Um, even though I absolutely love the book, um, my only thing about that I will complain about is that, um, she kind of. Brings up the same points multiple times throughout the book. Um, like the amount of time she brought up George Floyd, you know, or, um, you know, just like the brutality that police have done and like when she got arrested. That's, I have one more question about that too, but, um, it's just like, it seemed like it bounced around a lot in the stories. We kind of got repeats of the same stories and I wish it was just more like, like a little bit more like cohesive, like, oh, this is the story when I got arrested and it reminded me of like, you know, my parents, like, I can talk and be as like, you know, as, um, acceptable to the white community as I want. They'll still arrest me, they'll still kill me, you know, I'm still a black woman, you know. And then later on, like she's talking about it again. Like every time she mentioned George Floyd, my heart skipped a beat a little bit because I was still emotional about that, you know? So it is just like, okay, I got it. You know, like you mentioned him. Um, I don't wanna constantly think about seeing that video and stuff like when we're. Um, during, through, throughout the book, you know, that was my major issue with them, just like I want it to be, this is the section about George Floyd, this is the section about like, you know, on code switching, this is the section about, you know what I mean? So I just feel like a lot of the times the chapters kind of ran on when it did need to.

Jas: 1:33:05

I, I agree with that. And I think too, you said you read memoirs. I think that's probably why you had that critique, because that's one thing I love about memoirs is like they have a beautiful progression. Like you would never think this someone's real life because they like got that whole storyline going perfectly. We're like, here's a climax, and like, real life don't work like that. Like your life is like this. But in the memoir, they got it going like this. So, um, yeah, I can see that.

Joi: 1:33:31

My and um

Jann: 1:33:31

was gonna say that's just a symptom of self-help books, which is why I don't like to read them too often. Like it has to be specific to like what I'm dealing with at the moment because I start se skipping sections if I hear it too often. But that's something that they do. Like they'll mention one story at the beginning, at the middle, and then at the end again, and it's like six stories that you could have gotten done in half the time, but for some reason they keep repeating themselves. So that's definitely something that bugs me with all self-help books.

Joi: 1:33:58

Okay. So it wasn't just me. I feel like I didn't want to pick on her about that Exactly. It's just like, I didn't care to constantly read the same, um, you know, story, you know, and even when she, um, sometimes it felt a little bit academic, you know, with like, um, I love that she had citations and everything, but like sometimes I felt like I was reading an essay from, um, a college student and just like, oh, okay. Like all the statistics. And it's good to have the statistic statistics and background stories and, but like, I had a whole story about Oprah, Oprah Winfrey growing up, and a whole story about Michelle Obama growing up. And I know those stories. I love those stories. I love you're sharing with'em, but like, I feel like I'm here for self-help and I don't need the complete history of these black women as well. You know what I mean?

Jann: 1:34:42

I actually like that she added those stories in. I feel like it gave context and just because a lot of the conversation around, um, race and discussion of race is, okay, this happened to you. That doesn't mean it's a, like societal thing or it's like a system, like it provided like, okay, these are successful black women and it has also happened to them. You know, every single one of them have experienced this. So you can't just say it is specific to you, you know?

Joi: 1:35:08

But isn't there a way to say, Hey, Michelle Obama went through this instead of having, uh, a page and a half about her whole biography. It was like a summary of the book that I read above becoming Michelle, you know, and same thing with Oprah. So I was like, yeah, I like, I kind of knew this and like, it's good that you put it in there for people who didn't read the book, but, um,

Jann: 1:35:29

That's

Joi: 1:35:30

don't think, I don't feel like it was necessary exactly to have that much.

Jas: 1:35:34

Spoiler alert. Yeah.

Joi: 1:35:36

Yeah. But, um, that's kind of what I was

Jann: 1:35:38

I think there's a lot of people who aren't gonna read those books that they need the background. You know, like a lot of people only know Michelle Obama as the First Lady. They don't know anything else about her. So, um, I don't think they necessarily spoiled anything about the memoir. Like, I think you should still read it, but yeah, I do feel like not everyone's gonna read it. No, not everyone has. So it helps.

Joi: 1:36:03

Um, the last question I did wanna ask you guys, um, about this book was that, um, when she told the story about her getting arrested at the convenience store over the batteries that caused 2 49, um, would you guys have signed that paper and gone on with your life or what? Because I don't think I would've been there. I'm like, I would've actually, I know how she gets nervous'cause I do the same thing. I get nervous and I like start to fumble and shake a little bit under pressure like that. I'm like, listen, I got the receipt. Let me empty my bag out. You know? And when she said she actually like went through folders and like, it was in a notebook between pages and they let her, let her take her time to look for it. I feel like they just, they just, um, made it worse quickly for her and she didn't have the chance to actually find the receipt, you know? Or when she said, oh, couldn't you look at the cameras? She didn't even say like, to the police officers, like, Hey, look at the cameras. I didn't even go over there. You know? So, um, I don't think I would've signed that paper either, but I feel like if they came to the point that they were gonna arrest me, I'm like, you know what? Lemme go ahead that paper. I'm not back here. Anyway, you.

Jann: 1:37:03

Yeah, I think the complicated part about that is it seemed like it was a store. She would have to go to a lot for school, like a student union type of store. So I can see her like saying, oh, I, I have to come here. Like, I'm not doing that. I don't know what I would've did in that situation, but, um, I can say that if she sued that store, I would've sued the police department as well. Like,

Joi: 1:37:25

Yeah,

Jann: 1:37:25

I don't understand why they sued the store and not to the police department because they took their word over hers without any proof. Um, and they definitely could have asked to look at the cameras.

Joi: 1:37:36

Right? And only for 10,000 too. That's too,

Jann: 1:37:41

well they said too, like, you're not gonna get rich off of this, but you can make a point. And yeah, I feel like I'm petty enough that that 10,000 would've felt real nice in my bank account.

Joi: 1:37:51

I like at least pay a whole semester. I need a semester at least, please.

Jas: 1:37:58

I, I agree with, I agree with Jan. I don't know what I would do. In that situation, I, I feel like I've experienced so many racist things and like I have addressed maybe 50% of the racist things that happened to me. And I think a part of that has to do with what mentality I was in on that day, or like, um, was I in a safe space to say anything about this thing that happened to me? Um, so yeah, I, I really don't know what I would do, um, in that situation. Something that I feel like I've had a really bad, um, experience in, in one of my jobs, uh, that I had to learn to speak up for myself more. And something that I, I realize that we do a lot as black women is when we are treated badly. We take it for the sake of keeping the peace or for the sake of like not wanna make other people uncomfortable and um, or just flat out like not speaking up when you're not getting the same treatment as the people who may be paying for the same thing that you are also paying for. So I think a big lesson for me now is if I feel like I'm being treated unfairly where I am in a position where I can speak about that primarily. If I'm in a position where it's something I'm paying for or something I signed up for and it's not something that I could lose my job and my whole wellbeing, then that's something that I'm definitely going to say something about it. And you know, I've been doing that more, more and more lately and it is still hard to do. I am like anxious every single time I have to do it. And you really have to see like what type of men, mental state you're in on that day. To say like, can I, can I bear this too? So that would be my fault on that.

Joi: 1:39:54

That's true. It takes a lot of effort and a lot of like self-control to kind of get through a situation like that too. So I could see that. Mm-hmm.

Jann: 1:40:03

All right guys. Normally I would announce the next book now, but it is the last episode of the season. Um, we'll let you know, uh, when we're gonna be coming back for season two. but in the meantime, jazz, do you wanna let the people know where they can find you?

Jas: 1:40:17

Yes, so you can find me on my blog at Blogging Money Life. We're on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, um, and of course you go to our website for our blog and we're also on YouTube watch our videos where we talk about how to grow your blog as well as our journey when it comes to moving to Costa Rica. And you can also check me out on my other blog, miss Millennia magazine, and you can find us on all the socials as well at Miss Mill Mag, m i s s m i l l m a g. And I'll see y'all there.

Joi: 1:40:49

Listen to those credentials. Look at all that black girl excellence. Yes. Love it.

Jann: 1:40:59

All right, joy, you wanna do our sign off?

Joi: 1:41:02

Yes ma'am. Lemme get my vocalizations correct so you can hear me. on TikTok and Twitter, we're black girl Read Pod, B l K. So b l k Girl Reads Pod. And on Instagram, YouTube and Facebook, we're Black Girl Reads podcast, B l k Girl Reads podcast and we hope to see you guys there and follow and leave a review. A good one.

Jann: 1:41:32

Leave a review wherever you're listening to this. If you're watching on YouTube, please like and subscribe. Um, it really makes a difference for us. All right, well thanks everyone, and we'll see you next season.

Joi: 1:41:44

two.